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Why is estimation done in the first part
Last Post 28 Feb 2014 12:37 AM by Pablo Rossi. 4 Replies.
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Pablo Rossi
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Pablo Rossi

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26 Feb 2014 01:43 PM
    Why is the estimation done in the first part of the sprint plannning meeting and not in the second part?
    I hear that a lot from the teams because during the second part, when they are breaking the stories into tasks, discussions follows and as a result, a better estimation can be given?

    Chee-Hong Hsia
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    Chee-Hong Hsia

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    26 Feb 2014 03:18 PM
    Hi Rossi,

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean with "always estimate at the first part".

    Ideally the team should have approx. 80% of the PBI's estimated before starting a first sprint. Yes, start up can be quite time consuming, but there are ways to provide quick high level estimations.

    Once the team has reached the 80%, the next step is to see how much work can be committed within an sprint.
    Some teams also provide estimation in the second part of a SPM but that's more on tasks level, so don't confuse this with story level estimation.

    Hope this helps,

    Cheers. Chee-Hong
    Ludwig Harsch
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    Ludwig  Harsch

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    27 Feb 2014 02:22 AM
    Hi,
    Actually in the new Scrum Guide the planning is not necessarily splitted into part one and part two any more.
    So you can estimate, break down and adjust the estimation story by story if this is helpful for you.
    If you decide to split it, the first part will be about what can be done in the sprint. How do you decide, if you don't have estimations?
    Best, Ludwig
    Ian Mitchell
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    Ian Mitchell

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    27 Feb 2014 02:48 AM
    > Why is the estimation done in the first part of the sprint plannning meeting and not in the second part?

    There is no prescription in the Scrum Framework for when estimation must be done. There's a poor convention across the industry that estimation of story points happens in Sprint Planning. This is an anti-pattern, because each item on a Product Backlog must have a description, order, estimate, and value. Constraining estimation to Sprint Backlog items during Sprint Planning is inappropriate as it will leave the Product Backlog unsized and malformed.

    It therefore makes sense to provide estimates as soon as items are admitted onto the Product Backlog. This means that backlog refinement - an ongoing activity rather than an event - is the best time to provide estimates. In fact the Scrum Guide makes it clear that Product Backlog refinement is an "ongoing process" in which "detail, estimates, and order" are given to the constituent items.
    Pablo Rossi
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    Pablo Rossi

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    28 Feb 2014 12:37 AM

    Posted By Ian Mitchell on 27 Feb 2014 03:48 AM
    > Why is the estimation done in the first part of the sprint plannning meeting and not in the second part?

    There is no prescription in the Scrum Framework for when estimation must be done. There's a poor convention across the industry that estimation of story points happens in Sprint Planning. This is an anti-pattern, because each item on a Product Backlog must have a description, order, estimate, and value. Constraining estimation to Sprint Backlog items during Sprint Planning is inappropriate as it will leave the Product Backlog unsized and malformed.

    It therefore makes sense to provide estimates as soon as items are admitted onto the Product Backlog. This means that backlog refinement - an ongoing activity rather than an event - is the best time to provide estimates. In fact the Scrum Guide makes it clear that Product Backlog refinement is an "ongoing process" in which "detail, estimates, and order" are given to the constituent items.


    I never thought of it like this. So if I'm not mistaken:

    1. Before the sprint (during a refinement session) estimate approx. 80% of the PBI's.
    2. During sprint planning meeting, discuss how many PBI's can be taken into the sprint.
    3 Talk about the implementation.
    4. Sprint.
    5. Refinement session to talk about the upcoming items.

    THanks guys
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