The Scrum Master and the Product Owner is the same person

Last post 10:18 pm August 24, 2018
by Malcolm Evans
38 replies
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11:20 am August 6, 2018

Hi, 

What do you think about the case when the SM and the PO is the same person? Some say this is not effective. Probably I agree with them but in my mind it depends of a person. 

02:29 pm August 6, 2018

It would be an interesting coincidence and one which would merit investigation.

For example, whenever I have seen such an arrangement I have found there to be no PO or SM at all. Instead I have found a rebranded manager and a belief that agility can be propagated by renaming things.

05:58 pm August 6, 2018

The Scrum Guide doesn't state that the same person cannot play both roles, but practically speaking, think about the conflict of interest this scenario may cause for one person.

There is a healthy tension built into all three Scrum roles.  The Scrum Master is the sheep dog, protecting his or her flock (the Development Team) from working at an unsustainable pace, for example.  And the Product Owner is trying to influence the Development Team to deliver as much value as they can.  What would happen if this person leans more towards one role than the other?

06:29 pm August 6, 2018

Seeing as I have held both roles at the same time it is not that big of a deal. Not optimal but not that big of a deal.

06:52 pm August 6, 2018

Dan, how did you balance the responsibilities of both Scrum roles for the same team?   That would have much more value than simply stating that it isn't that big of a deal.

06:59 pm August 6, 2018

Beyond the obvious issues of having the time, and being able to focus, I think sometimes the argument becomes about power, and is interpreted as whether an individual is honest enough to perform the role of a PO without deliberately compromising that of a Scrum Master.
I do believe there are people with that level of integrity, that they will perform both roles to the best of their ability, even against their own self-interest.

However, I think the way such an individual is perceived by others is where the combination becomes almost impossible in most teams. I think it would be very hard for an individual to talk from a Product Owner's perspective, without worrying about the damage it can cause to have the Scrum Master speak in such a way (and vice versa).
For instance, when I was a Scrum Master and Developer, I sometimes wished my colleagues would ask certain questions of another Developer, because I knew they needed to hear a Developer's perspective, but I felt it would be harmful if as the Scrum Master, I didn't stick to the consistent messages I had been telling the team.

08:48 pm August 6, 2018

Timothy Baffa

Timothy it was not that big of a deal.

I did not have to balance the roles they took care of themselves.

Scrum masters tend to fool the orgs they work in that they put in 40 hours of work on a singular team.

That’s a myth. If you have one singular team unless and you just have a mess you are working with it is a part time role. Close to 20 to 25 hours a week. This is why Scrum Master’s should have other hats they put on.

The only time I put in 40+ hours of work as a scum master is when I have 3- 5 teams and do training in an organization. Or if I am scaling an organization with 5-9 teams working on the same product.

The same can be said for a PO they usually do other jobs when they are not PO’s.

I dedicated 50% of my time to each one and still found other things to do.

That’s it.

09:43 pm August 6, 2018

Dan, I now remember you as a recent poster who is quite dismissive of "proper" Scrum, and that you prefer to deal in the "real world".

Unfortunately, I do not find any value in your reply, or in some of your other posts.   You come across as very judgmental and dismissive - traits that I cannot see a Scrum Master or Product Owner benefiting from.   In fact, I think your reply here is quite alarming, as you are suggesting that scrum roles like SM and PO are not full-time positions.

Perhaps that is the case as you practice or view them, but I strongly feel  you would benefit from learning from others in this forum instead of approaching such discussions from an "I'm right, you're wrong" perspective.

 

10:40 pm August 6, 2018

Timothy Baffa

So, you are accusing me of something you are doing here in your response. I think it’s the other way around and you cannot take a different opinion, it breaks your brain. I can't tell if you are new to Agile Scrum or not but here is what I will tell you. 

The scrum guide is very good and gives you a template and a way of thinking to help you get there without telling you how to do it. It even states that in the scrum guide. 

I do real world scrum not scrum theory because once you really get skin in the game you will learn quickly not everything in the scrum guide applies to every scenario. Putting up a fight and trying to get a Director or a VP to do it by the book 100% of the time could get you fired.

I am almost 100% guaranteeing you that if you are the servant leader to one singular scrum team you have 15-20 hours a week of bandwidth to do other things. Unless you have such a broken Agile environment you are training and putting out fires constantly. You should be looking for other areas to make yourself cross functional.

The PO is not a 100% role either. Most PO’s I have worked with commit about 50% of their time to the product backlog. Many are Directors or Managers who have other duties.

You will find 100% committed PO’s but they are in large organizations with large products and large product teams. A company of 60 people will not have a PO 100% dedicated to 1 product backlog and say, “That’s your only job”.  

You don’t like different opinions and want to levitate over the scrum guide ok be my guest.

The scrum guide is my building block not my bible. Go to an agile meet up there are almost fist fights due to member disagreements.

I may not agree with everyone here, but I never attack anyone personally. I have been attacked by you and another member.  That makes 2 times. I told the moderators to delete all my post via email and that I would leave. They told me NO! That my real-world scenarios embodied the heart of Agile. They appreciated my input.

Simple answer for you is to ignore my post. AND I am wrong all the time, but I inspect and adapt that’s what makes me agile.

 

 

03:35 am August 7, 2018

I am not English native speaker so it is a little difficult for me to write in English, so sorry for possible mistakes. I guess the only one minus of this is that if you are the Scrum Master and the Product Owner your team may think you as a boss what is against principles of Scrum. But in all other cases it is ok. Personally I do not see here any problem. 

05:53 am August 7, 2018

Scrum masters tend to fool the orgs they work in that they put in 40 hours of work on a singular team.

That’s a myth. If you have one singular team unless and you just have a mess you are working with it is a part time role. Close to 20 to 25 hours a week. This is why Scrum Master’s should have other hats they put on.

Dan, it seems you are approaching this from a utilization perspective. In that a Scrum Master should be busy for his or her entire 40 hours of working.

Scrum Master can become a very broad role; particularly in troubled teams or organizations, or paradoxically in ones that are very open to improving. However, I do accept there are certainly some situations where the Scrum Master will have idle time.

In such cases, I think it's reasonable to consider whether it is helpful to have the Scrum Master there full-time.

The answer could quite legitimately be yes. Imagine how busy a hospital is at 3am on a Wednesday. I would guess (in relative terms) that it's usually quiet; but there must be staff present to cope with emergencies.

The answer could also be no. Perhaps it's less wasteful for a Scrum Team to wait occasionally for the Scrum Master to be present, than it is to pay someone to work full time.

Where I take a different approach to you Dan, is the focus on keeping a Scrum Master busy. I believe someone who is busy for 20 hours, and sat with the team, observing/listening/learning for the other 20 hours, would add much more value as a Scrum Master, than someone who is being kept constantly busy.

07:37 am August 7, 2018

Interesting perspective.

This combination would work only if the (Scrum) team is mature, self organized, long lived with strong application of Scrum in true spirit where the team members trust & care for each other and are capable of resolving their issues, with very minimal dependency on the SM. In that case, the same person can double up as the SM & PO , leaning more towards the PO and less towards the SM(only when the development team asks for some explicit help/pointers, that they can't resolve). Another factor to consider is the kind of product that you are dealing with - its vision, changing priorities, ease of user feedback, dynamics in the requirements churn, release window and the size of the whole product development team.

01:29 pm August 7, 2018

Simon I am self employed right now and coaching 3 different companies. Each are at different levels of their Scrum maturity. Two just want tweaking in a few areas. One is from the ground up starting from scratch.

They already have Scrum Masters, but they see them floundering. A VP asked me directly what do my Scrum Masters do with the rest of their time. He said he knows when they are not scrumming they have free time. I told him that depends, and we proceeded to have a lengthy conversation. I did tell him to “NOT!” start assigning additional duties because they need to be able to server the organization at all times.

Simon you said.

“Where I take a different approach to you Dan, is the focus on keeping a Scrum Master busy. I believe someone who is busy for 20 hours, and sat with the team, observing/listening/learning for the other 20 hours, would add much more value as a Scrum Master, than someone who is being kept constantly busy.”

You are not wrong here but there is a reality to this. VP, Directors, Managers, pick up on this lag time and realize a Scrum Master is not a full-time job with just 1 team. I see Scrum Master\Developer, Scrum Master\PO all the time. It is not optimal and not desired, but it happens often. Also, I keep qualifying “1 Singular scrum team”. Go look at any Scrum Master Job posting, and they require more than just your average scrum duties. I could break out a PO’s day\ week but I will not too much typing.

Let’s break it down for 1 singular scrum team. I know you can pad these numbers to make 40+ hours but then you are not being honest. I routinely work 50+ hours as a Scrum Master but I would have no less than 3 teams to get that number.

In a 2-week sprint –

Week 1 - most common activities for a Scrum Master.

Sprint planning – 4 hours (this can vary up to 4 or down to 2)

Daily scrum – 1 hour 15 minutes for the week

Impediment removal – 5 hours

Backlog refinement – 4 hours (could be more or less)

Ancillary meetings – 4 hours (think of something training, coaching, demo work before review, could be more or less)

Documentation\Reporting\Communication – 3 hours (probably less)

Lunch – 5 hours for the week

This all equals – 26.5 hours (Padded)

 

Week 2 – most common activities for a scrum master.

Daily scrum – 1 hour 15 minutes for the week

Impediment removal – 10 hours (I added additional hours because as you get closer to end of the sprint more things go wrong.)

Backlog refinement – 4 hours (could be more or less)

Ancillary meetings – 4 hours (think of something training, coaching, demo work before review, whatever)

Sprint review – 2 hours

Sprint Retrospective – 2 hours

Documentation\Reporting\Communication – 3 hours (probably less)

Lunch – 5 hours for the week

This all equals – 31.5 hours (Padded)

So, with that said I am not a bean counter I don’t do this type of restrictions at all, but this is a real-world reality for a singular team. Anyone can make up more duties to fill their day as a Scrum Master. As I said in some areas I am padding quite a bit which is why a Scrum Master should be able to handle 3 teams before they are stretched. OR be a Scrum Master\PO even if it short circuits your brain to think this way(not you personally).

So, to qualify I said “COMMON” because I don’t know what other orgs add. I am thinking most base duties. I said “SINGULAR TEAM” as well.

I am pretty much done with this even though I live to debate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

08:17 pm August 7, 2018

I would agree that Scrum Master+PO is not an ideal combination. I've done it, but there is always an inherit level of conflict of interest.

One place I've found myself naturally falling into when I'm not "scrumming" is to work closely with the Product Owner to help them learn how to improve in their role. Part of this is that I shifted into the role as a Scrum Master coming from a Product Owner role, so it's a very comfortable place for me to transition back and forth between. I've also found that in an organization, typically the Product Owner needs more ongoing coaching, skill development, and rigor than the development team.

I'll also jump in as the team needs me to and help with QA (especially teams that are heavily manual and shifting over to automated test), market research, data analysis and modeling, etc.

I also think that organization (and Scrum Masters themselves) often underestimate the amount of time they really should be spending preparing for various events. Facilitation is a very tricky and crucial skill (something I'm still working on), and I spend a lot of time very carefully thinking about that I want to get out of/need to happen at each event and different approaches for doing that.

If you are combining the PO/Scrum Master it does depend on the person. You need a PO that really embraces the underlying values behind lean software development practices and Scrum.

 

Generally, I get very suspicious when I hear a Scrum Master is working with 3+ teams at a time...usually that means that there's a lot getting missed and aren't as effective as they could be due to context switching.

11:47 pm August 7, 2018

Kevin

Don't get to offended here man but me handling 3 scrum teams is just experience. I am not bragging it’s just something I have done a while. I am very thorough as well that comes from being a PM. I don’t work 40 hours a week either I don’t know how. Agile Scrum does not like multi-tasking, it states it several times, but I have never experienced a place where I did not have to.  Guess what I also practice quite a bit in DEVOPS and I have always asked to be heavy handed in Jira administration.

So maybe I am just speaking for myself I just don’t believe 1 singular team is enough to fill a scrum masters day\week.

03:37 am August 8, 2018

Dan,

I didn't disagree with you, and I explicitly agreed that if you're on a single team as a Scrum Master just being the "Scrum Master" won't fill up a full 40 hour week; I gave examples of where I usually pick up other responsibilities to support my teams (i.e. what you called being cross-functional.) I said that I get suspicious of anyone that says they're SM for 3+ teams, because usually that means the teams aren't getting what they need from the scrum master. You, yourself said that when you're working with 3+ teams it's not uncommon for you to hit 50+ hours, and we all know that 1) the data shows very few people are able to keep being effective at 50+ hours over an extended period of time, and 2) there are diminishing returns because of context switching.

I don't know you personally and am not going to start making assumptions about your specific abilities --  you might be the exceptional case -- but that doesn't mean that your example is the best general recommendation.

I'd be curious to know about the maturity of your teams. My guess is that for the teams that are more "mature" and only require a light touch, someone else has probably on the brunt of the day-to-day Scrum Master's responsibilities, with you serving more as an "agile coach;" you're not really acting as a Scrum Master for that team at that point (and don't really need to.) Even looking at your numbers, if we take out lunch and shave down to the minimums for events that gives us an average of 15 hours per week per team (and that's assuming you're going into your meetings cold without any preparation, which is a terrible plan IMO.) That's still 30 hours a week for 2 teams, and let's be honest, most people DO NOT work a solid 40 hour week -- people take breaks, chit chat, get delayed on stuff, have to politic, etc -- you have to spend some time building rapport with your teams.

In summary:

  • 1 team? You better find other ways for you to help your team out and contribute.
  • 2 teams? You might have some capacity to help out, but be very careful about what you commit to, because you never know when something might come up in the other team and you need to put in some extra time.
  • 3 teams? You're pushing the limit, and I'm suspicious about how effective you are going to be, because MOST people (perhaps not you specifically) aren't, and I recommend against it.

Personally, I think 1 team with a cross-functional Scrum Master is best.

08:38 am August 8, 2018

Very interesting discussion !

My feeling is that many organizations do not utilize the full potential of what the scrum master role entitles. Many organizations have different expectations from the scrum master role. It also depends how large the product is, how many teams are, how many interactions and dependencies happen between the teams and so on. It also depends the experience of the person being scrum master. 

The scrum master is a role that evolve over time. 

Scrum Team level:

When there is a newly formed cross functional team or scrum team, the scrum master focus mainly on the scrum team. Teaching and explaining scrum, removing impediments and facilitating events. 

Relationship level:

When the team is mature and self organize, the scrum master focus on the relationships between the scrum team and  and other users (stakeholders, marketing, product management, any other support role). At this level, the scrum master applies self-organization to everyone, teaching and coaching as well. 

System level:

The scrum master focuses on the organization level (system level). At this level, you will then focus on transforming the organization. Bringing agile mindset and scrum values to the company level and so on. 

The fact is that not all scrum masters can perform at all these levels above............. of course it is possible but it depends on how much experience you have as a scrum master. I think that many companies have agile coaches performing at  the relationship and company level, but I think that being agile coach is a natural evolution of the scrum master role. 

Getting back to the point of these discussion... I think that many companies have scrum masters performing at the team level  and when the team is mature and self organize, I would say that it is time for the scrum master to occupy this "idle" time in coaching at these other levels. But if this is not possible then I think that the scrum master role is not a 100% position. 

09:29 am August 8, 2018

Getting back to the point of these discussion... I think that many companies have scrum masters performing at the team level  and when the team is mature and self organize, I would say that it is time for the scrum master to occupy this "idle" time in coaching at these other levels. But if this is not possible then I think that the scrum master role is not a 100% position. 

I think that’s the key point. A Scrum Master can easily be (or become) a 100% full time position if the wider remit is understood and embraced to include such things as organizational coaching.

Of course, that’s a huge if.

11:59 am August 8, 2018

Of course, that’s a huge if.

 

An if so huge it can cause one to frequently reconsider remaining in the role entirely.

01:43 am August 9, 2018

Hi,

Have acted as product owner for multiple products. In my opinion, scrum explicitly seperates scope/content from process. Also, scrum explicitly seperates development team (engineers + SM) and the scrum team (engineers + SM + PO). Why this works so good in my opinion, is that a SM is servant leader, solving problems, improving cooperation, improving effectiveness of the team while being part of the team. A PO looks at value vs complexity. He/she empowers and trusts the team in getting the best solution on the short and longer term in the product for the userstory / epic at hand.

Combining the two gives in my opinion to problems:

1. The PO/SM will not be trusted by the team as facilitator, but anticipated as top-down driven manager. This will not lead to autonomous teams and best results

2. Depending on how big the team/product is. Both roles, the PO and the SM, must not be underestimated as key factor of a succesful team. Both roles might be reduced a litte bit regarding FTE fill (from 1.0 to 0.8 for example), but only after a couple of quarters in my opinion. 

 

03:08 am August 9, 2018

For example, whenever I have seen such an arrangement I have found there to be no PO or SM at all. Instead I have found a rebranded manager and a belief that agility can be propagated by renaming things.

Sometimes, this person may be a system analyst who gets a Scrum certification. 

I used to serve as a consultant to several companies that wanted to be transformed from waterfall to Scrum.

The most common way they do this is to have the system analyst take a two-day course and then get a certification.(You know that.)

This person becomes their product owner and is responsible for internal Scrum training. Then, among senior developers, pick a person to be the scrum master, but the fact that all Scrum master should do is done by the product owner.

05:47 am August 9, 2018

Really? I am not sure how many full time Scrum Masters are reading this post. Fortunately, I get paid for full 40 hours of a week and without making "work" out of thin air.

Majority of my daily life as a Scrum Master goes to removing impediments and even for a single product and small team of 6 developers, there could be impediments that need to be addressed through constant messaging across management layers and across functional boundaries of the organization. Each interfacing team presents unique challenges and have to be addressed in their unique way (no one-size-fit-all).

The hours attributed in responses above do not include the hard work that goes in to make the next Sprint Retro bit more engaging, does not include the planning and deployment of tactics that engage the most shy person to speak up and break in with the best idea. And one coaching session to achieve the desired effect? There is no magic formula and there is no limit to excellence (even for the "most" mature team in sight)

How about the time spent to prep the information radiator configurations at the start and end of Sprint so that the teams can get the most benefit during use through the Sprints? Who prepares the Feature-Level and Release Level Cycle time Scatterplots to help PO take an informed decision on budgeting for next release?

And how about planning and execution time to counter the next big "Fr-Agile" [read Anti-Agile] idea that comes up and has to be really managed with a strategic approach - in baby-steps? 

 Luckily for me, I never had the need to justify my hours and a big yes - I never had to put my activity-based estimates and hours for every task, just like any other Developer. Quite frankly, if an organization is so much concerned on "Utilization" of the Scrum Master, they would be equally skeptical of the hours put in by every other Developer. And really - why would a VP be so much bothered about the "hours" of a Scrum Master and club the PO and SM roles together for better "utilization"? Perhaps working software delivered at Doorstep is no longer required?

06:39 am August 9, 2018

Also, scrum explicitly seperates development team (engineers + SM) and the scrum team (engineers + SM + PO).

Just to pick up on one point that was mentioned. The Development Team consists solely of Developers. The Scrum Team is the Development Team, Scrum Master and Product Owner.

02:01 am August 12, 2018

Just to pick up on one point that was mentioned. The Development Team consists solely of Developers. The Scrum Team is the Development Team, Scrum Master and Product Owner.

Thanks for this correction :).  

08:08 am August 15, 2018

Interesting thread. I feel like Dan has a really bad attitude but I can't disagree with some of his points. Trying to implement Agile in a real world mega-corporation is very very hard, and getting director/board level buy-in is sometimes just an absolute non-starter.

I'm currently dealing with a hybrid SM/PO situation and although we're getting by, it's not easy. I'm looking for solutions with regards to a better way of working.

 

 

08:40 pm August 15, 2018

Michael Coll Apparently the Scrum Masters on this board are very thin skinned. This is the 3rd time I have been personally attacked by a member. What if I said I feel personally you are short based on nothing? Brevity offends you? I don’t care what you think buddy.

You discern from a dissenting opinion that I have a bad attitude? If you are that sensitive how do you ever make it through a tough retro? How do you resolve any kind of conflict if you can’t handle a different opinion without name calling?

All of you Scrum masters are fooling yourselves or outright lying to yourselves. You are not the center of the universe on a software team you are a small piece of the puzzle.

The problem with Scrum Masters today is that it is too easy to attain. I came to scrum.org because their tests are difficult, and I have failed a few but they make you apply the most knowledge.

Mike there is a reason I have been a Sr Scrum Master for 12 years. Reasons I get paid the high $$ Rate I do, and I get referrals from prior customers. I am good at what I do Mike.

Mike in my new contract I am transforming 5 teams that are struggling and I do it in 40 hours a week.

In the 180 days I will spend with them they will be highly performing Agile teams. Applaud yourself rarely do I get agitated.

08:53 am August 16, 2018

Dan, you may have changed your "name", but not your attitude. Forgive me for saying this, but you appear to be quite the opposite of a good Scrum Master, for you don't seem to have quite a few necessary skills. Also, you don't seem to understand some of the values set forth not only in the SG, but also a few from the AM.

You may be a very nice guy in person (I hope you are!), but your virtual person displays quite a few unwanted traits.

Some of your contributions are valuable, but definitely not the above comment (replying to Michael).

11:01 am August 16, 2018

Hi @Mad Sweeny

Thanks for confirming my assertions that you have a bad attitude. 

Mentioning how much money you earn and your job title as some method of justification for your attitude is quite frankly embarrassing, and I am cringing on your behalf.

Anyhoo... That aside. This is quite a problem and I'm actually glad it's getting a bit of airtime here. I'll report back on what solutions my organisation comes up with. 

 

11:50 am August 16, 2018

Michael, because the issue seems largely a financial (and operational) one, as in the company's not willing (or doesn't see value in having) to invest in having a dedicated Scrum Master, the easiest temporary solution is to try to identify (subtle control - if that tells you anything) who (from all the developers) has the potential (and personal charisma) to serve as an interim SM. Sure, it will be a significant learning curve, with lots of mistakes and hiccups, but, hey, it is what it is.

I would strongly recommend you keep the PO role separate from the SM one.

12:46 am August 17, 2018

Eugene I am done posting here! The mods asked me to stay last time I won’t this time. What I see on this board barring a few are a bunch of theorists with very little applied knowledge. I feel like I should bring you all a box of tissues when I post.

Again a few guys on here are very good responders. Ching Lee stands out as the most solid. Most are like Ian, yourself, and I could name quite a few. “Scrum Theorists”. I mean what the hell is an “extreme ironer anyway”! I am on other forums and we go at it all the time without name calling or gang thinking. You guys struggle to formulate a singular real response. You cling to the Scrum guide and Agile Manifesto and if it goes outside your box or comfort zone you freeze. Or don’t respond and become prickly at a different opinion. The Agile Manifesto is on my phone. I posted it all over the new office I am at today.

Eugene you are awesome! A PSM1 who can’t even read 2 paragraphs of the scrum guide without posting a question because his head starts smoking. I don’t normally lash back out but since I am done who cares.

Look Scrum Masters are not the center of the universe. Quite frankly we are the laughing fodder of the development and devops staff. Google Scrum Master jokes you won’t like them.

But I have made a living proving the value of the Scrum Master for 12 years. I am the reason companies still take newbies like you seriously. As a matter of fact, part of my new role is to transform the teams and prove that their current Jr. Scrum Masters are needed full time.

I am saving jobs Eugene.

I highly respect the authors of the Scrum guide and the creators of the Agile Manifesto but this board is a clown car and all the clowns have poured out.

So, I’ll utilize the value of Scrum.org but the board is whack.

Later.

 

08:19 am August 17, 2018

"Eugene I am done posting here! The mods asked me to stay last time I won’t this time. What I see on this board barring a few are a bunch of theorists with very little applied knowledge. I feel like I should bring you all a box of tissues when I post."

  • That's very interesting. So you'd want us believe the mods went "the extra mile" and begged you to stay.
  • Bring us "a bunch of tissues" when you post :)? Yep, the self-called Senior Scrum Master. Makes sense after all. Thank you for teaching us such a valuable tissue lesson

"Most are like Ian, yourself, and I could name quite a few. “Scrum Theorists”. I mean what the hell is an “extreme ironer anyway”!" ... You guys struggle to formulate a singular real response. You cling to the Scrum guide and Agile Manifesto and if it goes outside your box or comfort zone you freeze. Or don’t respond and become prickly at a different opinion.

  • First of all, thank you for your kind words. Coming from "a Sr Scrum Master for 12 years. Reasons I get paid the high $$ Rate" is even a greater honor.
  • If you took some time to look into things, you'd see you're the one who's predominantly refusing to accept other opinions.

"The Agile Manifesto is on my phone. I posted it all over the new office I am at today."

  • That's just wonderful. How about trying to understand it?

"Eugene you are awesome! A PSM1 who can’t even read 2 paragraphs of the scrum guide without posting a question because his head starts smoking. I don’t normally lash back out but since I am done who cares."

  • I'm awesome indeed, but for other reasons (not cause I have a PSM cert)
  • Thanks for another round of kind words. I bet you're on your way to become the best Scrum Master / Agile Coach in the entire world.

"Look Scrum Masters are not the center of the universe. Quite frankly we are the laughing fodder of the development and devops staff. Google Scrum Master jokes you won’t like them."

  • One thing I'd like to look at is more structure and better format to your sentences and phrases. Using commas won't chop any $ fom your check.
  • "laughing fodder"? 

"But I have made a living proving the value of the Scrum Master for 12 years. I am the reason companies still take newbies like you seriously. As a matter of fact, part of my new role is to transform the teams and prove that their current Jr. Scrum Masters are needed full time."

  • 12 years? You don't prove a single week.
  • "I am the reason companies still take newbies like you seriously" - you've got it all wrong buddy. I find your approach to be, quite bluntly, toxic.

"I am saving jobs Eugene."

  • Yeah, I'm sure you are. In fact, you've saved more jobs than past two presidents together.

"I highly respect the authors of the Scrum guide and the creators of the Agile Manifesto but this board is a clown car and all the clowns have poured out."

  • What do you do for a living? Stand up comedy?
11:01 am August 17, 2018

Awwww poor Eugene the response of the weak minded "grammar". I'll depart leaving you a box of tissues. 

I am not the greatest I learn every day I just can't learn anything from the board. 

11:10 am August 17, 2018

Safe travels, the Dan

08:39 pm August 17, 2018

Good luck in your travels Mad Sweeny / Dan M., and please don't look back.

10:00 pm August 18, 2018

I'm new to posting on here... not new to Scrum.  Here's my rub... Can one person be a PO and a SM... yes... can they be effective... maybe.  Is it the right thing to do... never! The reality is that we can all benefit from the knowledge of others. When I was a product owner 12 or so years ago, I had a fantastic Scrum Master. I believe, if I had to have held both positions, I would have tried my best, as I'm sure all those stuck in that dual position will attempt.  But, I am super grateful for a skilled SM who taught me. I like what Kevin Krupp said about working with his product owner; teaching him and helping him become better at his job.  I think that is one of the reasons why we need separate people for those roles.  If they both work in tandem, they will build each other and the whole team benefits.

As a side note/question... being new to this forum, is there not any way to put a comment/reply directly on someone else's? I can't seem to figure out how to do that... this one long stream of comments isn't near as useful as it may be if there was a way to react directly to a previous post?

07:50 pm August 20, 2018

As a side note/question... being new to this forum, is there not any way to put a comment/reply directly on someone else's? I can't seem to figure out how to do that... this one long stream of comments isn't near as useful as it may be if there was a way to react directly to a previous post?

Hi Angry! Welcome to the forum!

No, there's no way to reply to a specific comment. The best you can do is use the block quote (like I just did), and copy/paste parts of a previous post into it.

08:16 pm August 20, 2018

I'd agree with Chris Belknap that the roles conflict. But having an SM that's shared with other teams works well in my experience.

04:56 am August 24, 2018

At some point this combination will only benefit the entire Scrum team, but I see it possible only when (1) The Development team is mature enough with consistent roster, and (2) This person who combines both roles is experienced Scrum master. Both conditions will let this person still assist the team without putting pressure, while focusing on the key aspect of the Product owner - delivering value. Else, others provided fair enough arguments why this can create a conflict of interest

10:18 pm August 24, 2018

Ok you can combine the roles but then it's essentially just a team with a boss.