Agile Transformation: From Brewing Innovation to Building Culture

In this Scrum.org Community Podcast episode, host Dave West speaks with Nathaniel Davis, CEO of Barrel One Collective, and PST Yuval Yeret about applying Agile principles beyond software — into the heart of business operations.

Nathaniel shares his journey from working in a large brewing company to leading Barrel One Collective, a brewing group where he’s working to make Agile the foundation for innovation and entrepreneurialism. Together, they explore how Agile thinking can balance experimentation and consistency, drive outcome-oriented leadership, and shape company culture as a product.

Tune in to hear how organizations can expand their definition of “product” — from beverages to behaviors — and how agility helps leaders continuously learn, adapt, and deliver value.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00
Welcome to the scrum.org community Podcast, the podcast from the home of Scrum. In this podcast, agile experts, including professional scrum trainers and other industry thought leaders, share their stories and experiences. We also explore hot topics in our space with thought provoking, challenging, energetic discussions. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Dave West: 0:25
Hello and welcome to the scrum.org community podcast. I'm your host, Dave West, CEO, here@scrum.org we've got a pretty awesome podcast for you today. I'm not I'm sort of super excited on so many levels, but because today we're talking about agile at the business level, agile as an operating system, or maybe a product operating model. And, you know, I get really excited about that. I'm very lucky to have Nathaniel Davis. You may know Nathaniel because he was CEO drink works, think Keurig for cocktails and booze, or maybe his current position as CEO of Bower, one collective, a New England brewing powerhouse with products including harpoon smutty nose. And actually, my personal favorite is from westet in the world of IPAs. I'm afraid I love a pilsner, and they have a fantastic Pilsner. Check Pilsner, that that I always go to on the menu. Also, yeah, this, they're recently famous for the crossover with Duncan called Duncan spike. Some of you may have seen that. Welcome to the podcast. Nathaniel, thanks, Dave. Nice to be here. It is great to have you. And also, just to ensure that this conversation stays on point, we have the PST, safe fellow and all round, really smart guy. Yuvel. Yvette, welcome to the podcast again. Yuval,

Yuval Yeret: 1:54
thank you, Dave, I admit I don't like IPAs. I didn't tell you that. Andy, I'm more of a wheat beer and cider

Dave West: 2:04
fan, so you've got, you've got to, well, I'm not anti IPI. I will drink them, but I just love a good it, particularly in the summer, appeals. But as you see, we could easily get sidetracked, and that's not a beer. The whole time we and I have been known to do that, but, but that's not what we're here for. And our listeners, though many of them are really interested in beer, would love to hear a little bit about agility and your journey. So let's start you've led than your organizations that blend physical products customer experience, from drinkworks to now bar one collective. When did you first realize that traditional management systems weren't enough, and what led you to this more agile way of working?

Nathaniel Davis: 2:52
Well, thanks. My you know, my background is actually with very large Brewing Company. I worked for Anheuser, Busch and AB InBev. After that a global Brewer. And so my job was basically R and D and innovation within a big, scaled global organization. And so, and it was a, and it was an amazing organization for systems. It was a, it was a machine of process, and to innovate within that was quite a challenge. And thinking through about systems that can operate on the fringes and then bring into a giant scale machine was what started me learning about agile models and agile philosophies and ways to approach it in the context of a big corporate entity. Ultimately, I spun out with some technology to form a joint venture called Drink works, which was AB InBev and Keurig Dr Pepper, as you, as you mentioned at the top of the hour, and I actually came to lean in to an agile, focused operating system, from from culture as a standpoint, more so than either either product or process. So we were thinking about how we really we had two we had members that had at one point been part of one company or another, that had been sort of assigned in. We had brought in other people from from outside, and this entity was not, was not the same culture as one of the big companies that had formed it, otherwise it would have been still part of that company. We had an obligation to be more entrepreneurial, much faster moving, lighter weight, more product focused, more more user oriented from start to finish. And we had an obligation to really articulate our culture as unique, different, and espousing all of those values and moving forward quickly. And so it came together together as we were starting to define who we were, why did we exist, and how did we operate? All of that came together. And so from the inception of that, of that company. We had decided that we were going to be born agile. Scrum was the, was the, was the operating system of choice, and so it was integrated into our routines, from strategic planning to to budgeting to the cadence of communication and everything in between, from pretty early on in that, in that endeavor, some, some parts of it were difficult and more challenging. Others worked flawlessly, and I carried forward and so, as you know, and if I turn the page and think about where I am, where I am now, I've landed in a brewing group. It's a it's an organization with multiple breweries. You know, 1415, brands, number of them, licensed brands, three operating breweries, nine restaurant tap rooms, big, complex organization and quite, quite different, but still housed in there. It's doesn't use the language or the formalities of any agile system, but it has the many of the foundational underpinnings that I see as the as the environment in which it can thrive given the right push. And that's the journey that I'm on now, thinking through instilling and advancing systems with a little bit of organization around a around a company that is agile at heart, but just doesn't use the language as such. So it's, it's, it's part of, part of the journey now.

Dave West: 6:34
So why, when you're at drink works and you are forming this new entity, didn't you just take all the systems from, you know, you worked for a big, proven, super successful organization. Why didn't you just take those systems? Was it? Was it because of the that sort of entrepreneurial experimentation idea, or, or was it because, you know, there was a large amount of software and tech now, you know, what was that that that catalyst, that single cast up catalyst? Well, it really was that

Nathaniel Davis: 7:05
our the goal and the mandate was to create products within and largely create a new category at the intersection of home appliances and and at all beverages or alcohol cocktails, is where we landed. And so we, by rights, were not, you know, we were not a scaled, massive beverage system doing everything the same way, on a large scale. We needed to, we needed to understand the user define the problem to solve, fall in love with that problem, but not a particular solution. Iterate around how we're going to actually solve it. Then we needed to design, you know, the product, invent some new technology, quickly prove what choices to make, all while moving super fast and scaling up where we had complexity in the product complexity and route to market uncertainty everywhere. It was not the same beast as, you know, making beer, selling beer,

Dave West: 8:07
yeah, much and Yeah. I think that that growth thing, that experimentation, that complexity element really, which lends itself brilliantly for Agile. Obviously, I'm a little biased, all right, so I want to get something out there and and I'd love to get you into this question as well. Yuval, in a moment, but in a business that makes beer, runs tap rooms, delivers hospitality experiences, what does agility mean to you as a CEO? I'd love to get your your words on that? Well, I think of, you know,

Nathaniel Davis: 8:44
agility at the enterprise level as fundamentally being, you know, one, the understanding that management's role is not to tell people what to do, but to create an environment in which people do their best work, right? That you know, and that is a philosophy that has to guide all of it. You need to. You need to assume that the people who know best what the decision are closest to its implementation. And you need to, it's your role to, yes, dictate resources and set large, lofty strategic goals, but to allow the flexibility for people and the permission for them to make decisions on the fly, at at the interface with, with where the where the market happens, where the users are using and so to create those conditions are really you know that is the role of of leadership and those that that's fundamental to my mind, what what agility means. It is that permission, and it's the and it's the total environment. The idea of of a product should be broadly applied. It does not mean necessarily. Really what's inside the package. It means how you made it, how you conceived of it, the culture in which we operate, the handbooks in HR, each of these things, if they have, if they have features and elements, if they can be iteratively improved, they can be, that they can gain feedback and look up, see what worked, what didn't, and try again and improve it again, whether that's

Dave West: 10:29
culture me,

Nathaniel Davis: 10:34
a system or process that we use, budgeting, strategic planning, or yes, the beer, the package, the label, the graphics, the marketing and everything in between is a very useful construct across the board, with the notable caveat of not being so precious about process and so precious about the language that people use to be, I think of it as being very expansive in my in in the the definition of what a product is, but not precious about the specifics of the process or the language

Dave West: 11:11
used to get there. I'd like to just bring you in Yuval, obviously you teach agility. You even taught me some agility back in the day. So anything you'd add to that really awesome definition,

Yuval Yeret: 11:27
yeah, I mean, I guess the only thing I'll add is, why is it useful to use agility in all of these scenarios? In my experience, I guess the way I look at it is, if you look at your strategy, as a CEO, as a leader, anywhere that you apply strategy, strategy, if we go to Roger Martin, for example, it's, how are you going to win? Where are you going to play? How are you going to win? What's your let's call it alpha. I work a lot in the financial world, so something rubs off there. But what's your alpha? What are you going to try to do differently? What's at the core of the difference? So in the case of bar one collective, what's going to be unique about how they do hospitality, or how they integrate multiple beer brands into an organization, how to leverage the connection between these different things. When there's alpha, there's opportunity, but there's also risk. The metric that we have with agility is that unlike the markets where you know, unless you have insider information, you know you have that risk, and you hedge it in different ways. The way we can hedge the alpha risk in organizations is by experimenting, by empowering people to make decisions faster, closer to the work, and to see if the idea we have about the new menu or the new way to drive events is worthwhile without going all the way down the path of implementing it. That, for me, is the essence of why agility makes sense for the business

Dave West: 13:21
I love that we balance the idea of a trust, freedom being closest to the problem, creating this environment for success and goals, and then you brought added into it, experimentation, frequent feedback loops, you Know, reducing the distance from problem to solution and decision making about that, and I think that's awesome. But experimentation, I obviously, I work with a lot of large traditional organizations. Experimentation, this idea of balancing creative experimentation with operational consistency. And an example in hospitality, you know, er, there's definitely consistency. And building beer is the same, everything that people don't like experimentation. So, Nathaniel, what do you think? I mean, how do you even balance those different things at any one moment.

Nathaniel Davis: 14:26
Well, I mean where we apply this most frequently today, and where we're thinking about the most is, is, is actually at the level of capabilities, rather than meddling with the cert the core services. So when I'm talking, when I'm thinking about experimentation in a hospitality setting, for for example, I'm talking about, I have a I have a tap room that's focused on giving brewery tours and tasting flights of beer and giving them some great, you know, a burger and or a. Nice German pretzel and pairing these things up whatever, if I'm experimenting, I'll come in with a tiger team, drop in with a with four batch cocktails, and open up a whole new section of the menu in order to see whether or not that basic you know, a new set of offerings, which they you know, by rights, don't have the core capabilities in house at the local level to do, and we can drop in and give a whole new dimension to the menu. And the experiment is to see whether or not our current clientele is interested in in tasting that. And then you dive into the details of whether they like, you know, cocktail A, B and C, and get the feedback on what that is so. So that's a way in which the risk of, you know, abject failure, is relatively low, because failure is they chose not to avail themselves of a tasty, little different drink. It just went for the for the core. So you don't have to mess with the core offering necessarily, in order to open up a whole new dimension of service or enjoyment or opening up to somebody new. And that's just one, one example of of kind of the way that we experiment within hospitality is at the level of what they're able to do and what they're able to offer. And then, if it works in one place, we might replicate it across multiple locations. Or we might, you know, additionally, run, run experiments only within a private event, you know, on one night only. And then you're not messing with the core menu and the and the regulars, you know, and yeah, you might, you might mess with, you know, other aspects that are more core, but there's a plenty of experimentation, which is growth, opportunity and expansion and, you know, and additional interest and additional features and value for either people who are coming now or new people that aren't, aren't, aren't coming yet, that that gives us a sort of a great balance of risk and reward. In my mind,

Dave West: 16:56
I think what you touched on there, Daniel was this, you know, my mom used to work in a supermarket. And the, you know, the supermarket always experimented, well, didn't always, but occasionally experimented with things. Probably didn't enough, but the problem, she said, it was just always additive. So she had a full time job. She was busy. She was, you know, running the cigarette counter that. Well, you know that, like you do, and you know the exec, she's, oh, no, you're going to do this as well, you know, wear a hat and play a banjo, you know? And she was like, I haven't got time. I think what you highlighted is that be mindful of the environment your experimentation is going into, and be very cognizant listen to those stakeholders and ask those the questions. Because, you know, if they're not in support, like you bring in a new cocktail into the into the tap room, you try it, but you don't give them any support, then you know what's going to happen. Really, it's not, you know. I mean, if you're lucky, you might get a couple of but they're going to be concentrating their day job always, unless you change their rewards. And then that could change maybe. But ultimately, I think that broader stakeholder view for experimentation and looking at the impact is crucial. Yuval, you probably want to talk a little about OKRs and measures.

Yuval Yeret: 18:14
I mean, I just want to ground us back to classic product management, classic product development. And I think all of this applies, I think Jeffrey Moore talked about the stage at which a lot of the work that we do in it and in product development move from systems of record that you simply have to, you know, record your stuff in to systems of experience where you have options. I think it's also to as the decades go by, even when people have to do things, they don't necessarily do them. So when we design experiences, when we're a product owner, product manager that needs to deliver a product that affects somebody and creates behavior, we need to think about all of these things. Every feature we develop is some sort of bet that it would drive the right behavior. Sometimes we treat it as a bet. Sometimes we don't, but essentially, it's changing the way people are doing things. It's going into the way people are operating something, whether it's the way they're managing their client relations or managing their time sheets or developing applications using AI with Vibe coding, whatever it is we're we have an hypothesis that this would change for the better, their behavior in a way that would drive impact that would make our product more successful, more sticky for them, or if it's an internal organization that they would resist less do. In the thing you want them to do now, the role of metrics is to help us see what's going on. The role of KPIs is to tell us what's going on. And where do we even need to experiment if, if the core is working, if a certain type of beer or menu item is selling like crazy, working well, I wouldn't change anything about the recipe for it. What I might focus on is, can I? Can I make it more efficient to make it but I wouldn't change the recipe if there's, can I sell them? That's an issue, yeah,

Dave West: 20:46
and can I upsell or add a, add another, add another pretzel to it. But it's interesting that you leaned in very heavily, Yellen on experience and the and that that element of a product, ultimately, that is the thing really, even if it does, you know, it has capabilities and does this and does that, but, but ultimately, it's in the context of an experience.

Yuval Yeret: 21:09
How, how broad Do

Dave West: 21:13
you think experience, learning about, thinking about experience, needs to be in an organization when you're on this journey? Is it? Nathaniel, did you make it like front and center at drink? Drink works, and now barrel one thinking about that broader experience always, because, you know, my mom didn't think much about the experience. She just concentrated on the job. I'd love her.

Nathaniel Davis: 21:39
No, I absolutely we thought about experience end to end, and again, thought thought broadly about it in the sense that we we were, we thought of ourselves as managing the user experience across a whole story arc that touched our various products. We had a we had, in the case of drink works, we had a, you know, an appliance. We had the different drinks and their choice. We had to we curated a whole shopping experience. There was the online sales experience, which is its own, its own journey. And so we thought of user experience as an absolute through line for all touch points, right? And spend an awful lot of time mapping every interaction point, from hearing about us the first time through to shopping in the various channels, both online and in brick and mortar, through the actual interaction with the product. And then, you know, repeat and follow on here, it's very easy to think of the hospitality world of restaurants, tap rooms and, you know, festivals and private events, where where our brands come to life that is completely experiential from, from the, you know, from the interaction with the host, or even before that, where you hear about us online, or choosing what, what restaurant to go to, or where to go for a drink, through to the glassware and the seating and the lighting and the ambiance and and the music and, you know, through to, you know, maybe a tour and how you get the check. So the experience is absolutely paramount. The mindset of hospitality, end to end is absolutely critical there. And every touch point can be improved, and it can get feedback, and it can be, you know, measured to a certain extent, right?

Dave West: 23:31
You know, if I'm working on one element of it, maybe I'm making pretzels. Maybe I'm, you know, I don't know, brewing beer. Maybe I'm whatever those things are. Do you spend a lot of time encouraging everybody to think of it holistically and re as a leader, reinforcing that message over and over again?

Nathaniel Davis: 23:52
Yeah, and it's not at the it is throughout, but it is. It is not only at the level of training. The person who speaks to speaks to the customers. It is woven into our values at the level of the articulation of our culture. Hospitality mindset is one of the one of the fundamentals of working at the company. And that goes for somebody who is, you know, a brewer in the cellar, or is somebody who's serving beer in one of the tap rooms, right? So it's woven into the DNA, and therefore is a filter for who we hire and who might exit. It is a benchmark and a yardstick. So, yes, the design of the experience and the importance of the hospitality mindset is the way that we articulate that in particular is is end to end, right from from the hiring process through to, you know, user interaction in a tap room.

Dave West: 24:53
I'm reminded of the Trader Joe's versus, you know, sort of traditional supermarket. And in their profitability per square foot is so much more. And when you know, when you read the HBr articles, they're quite they're quite focused on that cultural element and that customer centricity that you're talking about experience is something we often don't talk enough about when we're talking about agility. In this way, Yuval,

Yuval Yeret: 25:23
you're looking just to double down on the Trader Joe. Trader Joe's example, it's culture, but it's also some leading indicators. So I don't remember the details, but of how they started to design this. But what Trader Joe's realized was that something that drives their success is when the associates are available in the lanes while people are shopping. So this weird decision, come to think of it, that they're going to resupply throughout the day, not at the end of the day, that together with the culture of their dare to proactively ask you, what do you need? Do you need to find anything that you know, it's a much different experience. But it's also driven by this, this experiment of what's going to happen if we're going to resupply throughout the day

Dave West: 26:22
and and it's funny that you mentioned that, because they are trying that in other supermarkets. But what they haven't done a good job of is changing the equipment that they use to so they take unitainess and they roll these units on because, you know, they are resupplying during the day. They've got lots of people there. But the problem is, then it's too big. Whereas what Trader Joe's did a fantastic job, and to some extent enforced by the just the sheer dynamics of their store, they have smaller restock tools, which gives them the ability. I mean, it's less efficient by by far, but it gives you that. So you have to think holistically about that experience, or at least have the have the desire to change based on experience, like you're bringing in those cocktails, and you're in into this, into this experience, and, you know, and you're like, Oh, well, no, we need everybody needs, we need somebody that represents that because, You know, you always go to a good bartender to get a good cocktail, blah, blah, blah, you know. And you're like, the average server can't do that, you know. Or whatever I'm I have no idea what I'm talking about now, because, you know, you know, cocktails aren't, aren't big in England. So we, you know, we try to avoid them. But the every English person is listening like, No, we do do them. Yeah, I know. But the you know, so you have to think of it holistically and then continuously change those, those things. I

Nathaniel Davis: 27:50
mean, the point is, in this particular example, it's not merely the presence of the drink and that it tastes good. It's not, it's not nearly good enough. They need to see. It needs to be well described. It needs to be sold in. It needs to be visible, you know. And so it is, you know, it's every one of these dimensions. And you can have the world's best tasting, most complex, delicious, multi layer, you know, pousse cafe over here that, you know, that everybody would run if they tried it, they would love it. But if they don't see it, they're, they're not interested. And it's not sold in an appetizing way, or framed up appropriately, or if the total environment doesn't work, then it'll it can fail for all for 20 different reasons, other that has nothing to do with how delicious The drink is, that they'll never put to their lips.

Dave West: 28:35
And to stay this full circle that requires you to have a culture where you have the ability to challenge those sacred cows,

Nathaniel Davis: 28:44
and you've got to have somebody who came up with the idea in the first place, or helped facilitate it, who has the humility to recognize that they are not going to get every one of those things right. And there are the three people closest to the product that are going to come up with the combination that is necessary. And so all you've got to, you've got to have the end to end conversation around change. What needs to be changed. The goal is, X, you know, sell. Some of this gets feedback, or whatever. You have the right to make it work. You have the obligation to make it work, you know, it's, you know, and I'm going to bring you some capabilities that you didn't have before. And that's that's the partnership there between what we think of as platform

Yuval Yeret: 29:25
and execution. And I think what Andy's talking about is the difference between managing actions, activities or even deliverables, artifacts or outputs and managing or leading through outcomes, specifying. This is the intent. This is what we would like to see. This is the leading indicator. This is the needle we're trying to move. You have the freedom. You're empowered to try. Then move that needle, whatever features that product will have, whether they're what's the actual operating procedure? How will we actually design the menu? What cocktails make sense? Do cocktails even make sense? Ideally, all of that happens in the last mile happens in these teams that know what's the direction we want to we want to head to, but have freedom to to experiment, and the capabilities that let them experiment.

Nathaniel Davis: 30:33
The analog, I mean, we use an analogy that is, you know, strategy kind of picks mountains. These bets are like planting flags on the mountain, but I don't care what path you walk up to get there.

Dave West: 30:44
Yeah, it is surprising how hard it is to really demonstrate that over and over again. Though, the the amount of times I've said, Look, I don't mind how you do this, what it actually looks like. What I want is, you know, currently my hypothesis is, if we deliver this, it will do this. This is the flag. But the challenge that I have is, then people still like, okay, so how? And it takes so much demonstration coaching, I don't know the words to really describe it. So much helping to appreciate that you do have free reign. If you want to throw away these things, it you can, don't, don't look about just do it and and it's actually a lot harder than it looks. From my experience. Actually,

Yuval Yeret: 31:36
I haven't been a fly on the wall enough when you've had these conversations with your team, Dave, but I've been the fly on the wall for a lot of other leaders, and what I've seen is it's as hard for the people that are supposed to figure out how to find the path towards That flag as it is for the leader to stop at planting the flag and not prescribe the direction, yeah, if not harder for the leader, there's a leadership essence that that needs to change when you want to switch towards evidence or outcome based management rather than activity in project based that's incredibly hard,

Nathaniel Davis: 32:26
especially if you're both experienced and passionate. I fail at this all the time, you know, with respect to having an opinion, but I try very hard, which I think is a pretty good first step to preface it with saying this is not prescriptive, but I'm going to give you a couple of ideas. Throw them away if you want, but here's what I'm thinking. And I typically don't completely shut up and say nothing, because I both have done a lot of stuff in the space, and I've got a lot of opinions, and I got a lot of passion for where they're headed. So, you know, and sometimes I think that meets halfway, where people want some guidance and direction and maybe don't know how to do because it's new, even though the details they're going to work out. And I'm confident of that. And so I often, I try very hard not to be prescriptive, but by framing it explicitly that this is an opinion, not a not a, not an order or, or I'm not prescriptive. I'm giving a giving some thought starters, and then you take it from here, right? And it can look nothing like this when it's finished. And good luck.

Dave West: 33:36
Yeah, and I'm, you sort of nailed. I'm also very passionate and have opinions, and sometimes that does get in the way. Okay, we could talk for ever on this, because, you know, I've learning so much. We have to come to the end of this, this podcast sedan and love, you know, you're on a journey at the moment, and I would love to ask you to come back in six months, nine months, and tell me how it's going. I know you're probably like, No, I'm never doing this again. Dave. You're just, this is awful. But if there's anything

Nathaniel Davis: 34:11
to tell you now that it's gonna be perfect, and then we'll never check on how it actually went, it's gonna be great.

Dave West: 34:18
I know it's gonna be great because it's not going to be perfect. That's the reason why you the last 30 minutes, I've sort of learned enough about you that that that fundamental appreciation that things will go wrong and there will be problems, but that's okay, and that's part of the journey. Is is part of your DNA, which I know means that you're more likely to be successful than not so. So one I'd love to ask you back in six, nine months, you know, in 2026 which is a crazy date to say, but I'd love to get you back onto onto the platform to let me know how it's going. But our listeners are sitting there. They're listening hopefully. Right? And they're thinking to themselves, Oh my god, there was so much there. There was, you know, all this talk about capabilities, you know, and not focusing on services, this idea of building this culture, the you know, that managing the appetite of risk, involving everybody, lots and lots of really, really strong messages. But what is the one thing I'm going to ask both you this question, so the one thing that you would you would tell our listeners, you would encourage our listeners think about as they leave this podcast.

Yuval Yeret: 35:36
You want to go Yuval, I can go as we were. I'll latch on to the last part of the conversation, the leadership challenge. Dharmesh Shah from HubSpot, another Boston powerhouse. He looks at developing culture as a product. A lot of fascinating stuff. You know, we can, we can send some links. But one thing I really like that I learned from him is what he called Flash. Calls flash tags. It's for every message that he sends, in email, in Slack, whatever he adds. This is an FYI. This is a suggestion. This is a recommendation. This is a plea. I really want you to do something, and by being explicit about that, it helps him avoid or minimize the effect of the voice of the legendary CTO founder that every you know, word they say or sentence they say, is considered the 10 Commandments. I think there's you can use that, but there's something else I invite leaders that want to start this journey do, which is to look at the messages that you're sending, and consider, are those outcome oriented messages? Are they impact oriented messages? How often is your language outcomes versus output versus activity? With AI, there's probably some interesting things you can do to scan your inbox, your Monday or Jira, whatever, to see how much of that is outcome oriented. I do that with, you know, with product managers, with business leaders. We look at the pie chart of how often do you talk in outcomes. That's an easy start, like with flow. We first visualize the flow, and then we we start to shift the flow.

Dave West: 37:47
So, gosh, that was actually two things then, but thanks you. Val, that was, that was great. Daniel, what do you think?

Nathaniel Davis: 37:58
Yeah, I'll maybe come full circle a bit and say that the if I were to leave a message, it would be around thinking expansively about the concept of product that allows a couple of things. One, you know, anytime I have a conversation like this, people are drawn to the idea that you're applying these concepts not to software or not just to software, and as soon as you step back and think comprehensively about products, which is pretty straightforward, if it's got features that you could add or improve, it's experienced by people and can get feedback in some kind of a cadence, then it's really everything. It is the company, it is its culture, it is every individual. It is groups, it is process, and yes, it's also what we would use capital P products for as well. And so the idea of of of applying these concepts beyond software is very easy, if you take an expansive

Unknown: 39:07
view of product, awesome.

Dave West: 39:10
They were great words of wisdom. And you've actually, both of you have given me food, food for thought. If that's hard to say on a Friday afternoon, your definition of product and how you think about it that expansive is even more expansive than mine, which, and I thought I was pretty on the expansive side. So that's really refreshing and super interesting. And it was great, very useful. And Yuval, you're the two things that you did. I love thinking explicitly about the almost hashtagging when you do a message to the rest of the organization to determine what it is, and actually being upfront with that, because I send a lot of mixed message. Is as as it were, I think that in particular, I like that I'm going to have to do a better job there. Gentlemen, thank you for spending, spending this time with with the scrum.org, community podcast, and myself, I've, as I said, I've learned a lot, and I think I listen as well as well so and I really want you back. This is a journey that you're on. I'm really excited to hear what happens. And bar one collective is obviously, or barrel one is, and the breweries that make it up a part of the institutions that are New England. So I'm really excited about the journey you're on there, which is, which is great, and and Yuval Always a pleasure, even if I feel like I'm in trouble. And thank you for listening today, to today, scrum.org, community podcast. This was, this was a pretty special one. I was joined by Yuval, Yvette, as always that my, my intelligent, often co host now on the, on the on the podcast, but we were both joined by Nathaniel Davis, CEO extraordinaire, of of Bowen collective here in New England, and sharing some fantastic nuggets and the journey to agility and what your agility really means. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe, share with friends, and, of course, come back and listen some more. I'm lucky enough to have a variety of guests talking about everything in the area, professional Scrum Product thinking. And of course, as we heard today, real agility. Thank you, everybody, and Scrum on