AI and the Future of Product Ownership
Artificial Intelligence is rapidly changing the way Product Owners work—from streamlining daily tasks to shaping strategic decisions. In this episode of the Scrum.org Community Podcast, Dave West is joined by Ruud Adriaans, Product Owner and Linus Wiggers, Head of AI from Productowner.nl to explore AI’s growing influence on Product Ownership.
They discuss how Product Owners can start small—by identifying time-consuming tasks and experimenting with AI tools—while also taking a bigger-picture view with vision, strategy, and policy. The conversation covers the balance of efficiency and quality, the importance of mastering AI prompting, and the benefits of hands-on experience through hackathons and personal projects.
Catch more insights at the upcoming Product Owner Event in Rotterdam Ahoy in the Netherlands on the 2nd of October 2025!
Transcript
0:00
Announcer, welcome to the scrum.org community podcast, a podcast from the home of Scrum. In this podcast, we feature professional scrum trainers and other scrum practitioners sharing their stories and experiences to help learn from the experience of others. We hope you enjoy this episode.
Dave West 0:20
Hello and welcome to the scrum.org community podcast. I'm your host. Dave West, CEO, here@scrum.org in today's podcast, we're discussing AI and the impact on product ownership. Yes, we are that cool. We've talked about AI a few times on the podcast, and I realized that we'd never actually talked about it in the context of product ownership. We've talked about it generally. We've talked about it, you know, sort of as a phenomenon to Scrum teams about how Scrum teams can take advantage of it and and use it to their advantage. But we've, we've never really talked about it in terms of product ownership. And because of this, I invited two awesome people onto the podcast from an organization that we work with quite a lot, called product owner.nl to share their experience. Product Owner NL, if you don't know of them and you're not in the Netherlands, though, increasingly, they're being seen in other parts of particularly Europe, Benelux, Germany. Around there, they're the primary premium, premier organization around product ownership, and they've really taken this discipline, this accountability, and really added a community, loads of great content that brought brought people together. And in fact, they run an event in in the Netherlands, it Rotterdam in October, end of September, and it's, it's probably one of the best product events I've ever been to. I spoke there last year, and I'm actually speaking again, because I guess I didn't do that bad a job, and they've invited me back. So, so check them out. Product owner.nl, awesome organization, but the two people, because ultimately, product ownership is about people that we've invited today to talk to us are Ruud Adriaans. I'm not sure I've said that correctly. And Linus wiggers, two Dutch gentlemen, which obviously is an as an Englishman, living in America with dyslexia, I find incredibly hard to say your names gentlemen, so I apologize if I wrecked them, but Linus and hood, welcome to the podcast. Yeah.
Linus Wiggers 2:41
Thank you very much. That's nice introduction.
Dave West 2:44
Yeah, yeah. It was great. And I'm so glad that you took the time to spend with us today, and our listeners will be as well. Because, you know, the great thing about product, I know this, you, not only you've got this amazing community, so loads of people talking to you, and you're talking with them and facilitating conversations, but your self, you've been, you're involved in organizations that have product ownership as a discipline, and are doing it. So hopefully we can, we can take advantage of some of that experience, because the rise of generative AI has been incredibly rapid. I was, I was doing a thing yesterday, recording a thing for an event that happens every year. So I watched last year's the recording I did last year to welcome people to this event. It's in Malaya, Malina, someone like that. Anyway, it's a big organization that would do a lot of Scrum. And I, I was speaking, I was recording this event. So I watched the previous year. So a year ago, about this time, and I didn't mention AI once, and I'm like, Whoa. So then I was sort of looking for my notes, and the last year, it's been huge. The rapid adoption, you know, chat GPT came out, and then this, and that was over well over a year ago, but then this, sort of like, rapid adoption, and it's been incredible, and product owners are now trying to take advantage of it, you know, but, but the question is, how, and, and I think that that's what, you know. I'm sure many people that listen into this podcast, listen are trying to use AI. Maybe they're using it in their day to day, maybe using it a bit so I guess. And we'll start Lud if you don't mind, with you, how are you seeing product owners leverage AI in their day to day work?
Ruud Adriaans 4:33
Yes, good question, and good to spend some time on that. I think what you say day to day work. What I believe is that literally every factor of or literally every work that the product owner is doing across the week, across the sprint, is being touched heavily by AI or impacted heavily. And what we always we challenge the product owners. We train we see, we. Work with always to take their agendas. I think that's a good starting point. Take your agenda. Take a look back your agenda for the last two weeks, and take a look up front, like the upcoming two weeks, and then you will see the incredibly lot of things you're doing that takes so much time. And that's, I think where you can start leveraging as a product owner, AI, because then, you know, okay, what cost me a lot of time? What are my problems in my working life as a product owner, which I would like to solve? And from there, you can take it very rapidly to a higher, higher level. And that's a bit the way where we see product owners starting this and in the work of product owner, yeah, there are many things that we can discuss during the podcast that you can improve or work more efficient by the use of AI.
Dave West 5:52
Do you think it's predominantly about efficiency, or, you know, you sort of, well, these tools are leveraging the the sum of all human knowledge, right? I mean, yeah, if the internet is the example of of human knowledge, I mean, it's, there's a lot of rubbish on it as well. So, so I guess the sum of all humanity as it, as it were, is it just about efficiency? What about quality? What about, I know, I have found, you know, I was, I was writing a class for LinkedIn learning, and I'd written the the, you know, the curriculum, and I was like, this good enough, and I threw it into Claude, and it, it told me I missed a couple of things. So there was a quality element as well, dude, is it? Is it just about efficiency, or do you think about
Ruud Adriaans 6:39
quality? Yes, I think I would say it's even more about quality. But if you're listening to this, and as a product owner, really using AI, I would say, start with utilizing it for efficiency purposes. What I always recommend to do, and what I see a lot of product owners doing, is start with efficiency and always ask whatever large language model or AI tooling you're using, always ask the tool to challenge your output and the outcome itself. So then you're really increasing the quality. So for example, what I've been seeing, or some a lot of product owners have been using rapid prototyping nowadays, I think it's super efficient to rapid prototype something, but I would say the quality is not that good, but it's very efficient. You can show it to users, to stakeholders, to developers. So it's very, very efficient to share your thoughts. But if you ask those AI tools to challenge your designs, to challenge your prototypes, I think that's where you make a difference and really use, yeah, maybe increase quality by the use of AI Linus.
Dave West 7:48
What, from your perspective, what are you saying?
Linus Wiggers 7:52
Yeah, I think I'm, I'm more in this subject from a strategic point of view. We solve a lot of HR issues providing product owners to places where there are temporarily unavailable, or where they're looking for a PO and now the question is going to be different. So normally they they ask for people, but now they are, they are asking for AI. I think it's difficult question, because you're asking for a solution and not stating your your problem. So it's only only the means of AI that's going to give you the benefit. Yeah, and, and I see both sides as well, the efficiency both and improving the quality of the work. I think it will cost you more time as a PO if you get started with it, you have to get used of the tool. You have to get use of where can you use it on a day to day basis. It's like moving to a different house or to a new job, or you have to get acquainted with the new technique. And instead of, well, let's say, use Google to search for your information, you have to open perplexity or chat, GPT or whatever to you fancy. Yeah, so, so, but it's on both ways. I think it can if you, if you take the same time for your task, you can have a better output within that time frame.
Ruud Adriaans 9:38
So I really like about about what Lina says about states the problem. I think that's, that's what, that's key in what Lina says, like, stating the problem for efficiency, stating the problem for quality, whatever it is, it starts with stating a problem that's, that's, I think, very, very important.
Linus Wiggers 9:54
Yeah, when we, when we go more in a consultative role, into companies, the. We it's almost like three steps. People arrive at our desk with the question, How can I put AI in my product? I think that's the wrong question. And then we go back, well, first, learn your product owner to use AI to start with. Here's a course we can next week, we and I are going to give a course in the Netherlands as well. We have to train a company where we really want to get people acquainted with and inspire each other. And the next step, the second step, is to look in your company, where can you improve processes, mostly back end processes with AI customer services, but also finance or HR legal, that kind of department. And then the last step, when you all get acquainted with with using AI, is that a word where you all get, we're all using AI on a day to day basis. You can see which problems you can solve with it.
Dave West 11:12
So there's a couple of interesting points here. So there's using AI to make product ownership better, you know, so applying the technology to improve the task of basically aligning to value, delivering the most valuable things to your stakeholders, to your users, and ultimately doing that accountability better. And then there's the application of AI in the problems in the products the product owner owns, as it were, and it is increasing very interesting, because it is symbiotic as well. The more you use AI yourself, the more you appreciate the power of using AI in the products and capabilities that you're delivering to your to your stakeholders. It also what I've observed and, and I don't know if this is something that's universal, because I've only seen it actually in one organization, is that they realize that AI could fill the gaps that their product couldn't currently do me, but But they'd have to deliver it in a different way, meaning they would have to, and this is support, predominantly a help desk support, interestingly, for consumer packaged goods, product and so not, not techie support, really, but how do I use my this product to do something that it's meant to do? And what they found was that they they built this incredible knowledge base. They have this standard, you know, for the people all over the world would phone number and say, Hey, how do you use this thing to do this? And they but they were finding it was customers weren't particularly happy. And what they'd managed to do was just a little bit of training. They managed to get AI to listen to the call and then present the person, the call handler, with like, Hey, have you thought about asking this? Or you don't, don't forget that this person is a, you know, comes from China or whatever, so be careful here or whatever. You know, it was just really, really quite interesting. And they learned that to sort of, so it wasn't a normal sort of dropping that code into their system, etc. It was more teaching and working with the call handlers. So I guess, do you think AI ultimately, the benefit really, from a product owner is that they have to if by using AI, they'll learn more about AI so they then can even improve their products with AI. So it's a sort of symbiotic thing.
Ruud Adriaans 13:47
Yeah, if you ask me, yes, for sure, where we start with product owners is with prompting. And what I hear at the beginning that everybody is a master in prompting, but after a little while, we figure that everybody can learn a little bit of prompting, still and prompting, if you use chatgpt daily, then prompting is important. But if you go all the way to AI coding, then prompting is key, it's still key. So what you put in there by a prompt, and that determines the output, the quality of it. So if you manage to really embrace chatgpt and chatgpt agents or copilot or Gemini or whatever you're using, that's the start. If you're able, as a product owner, to set up your own AI colleague, your own AI product owner colleague, then you can utilize those findings and building an agent for your HR department, for example, at the at the end, so they have those same questions, for example, that's, that's what we see. And also, like I mentioned, rapid prototyping, AI coding and. Data and insights. It all starts with decent prompting and building your own AI colleague, and from there, as a product owner, you can take it to really bring AI to your own products.
Dave West 15:11
Yeah. So the point is that I guess AI is here to stay, and the product owners need to because of the unique position that a product owner has the intersection of technology and business problems, and they need to learn it, because this is part of their life, right? Nina, you talk a lot up to strategically to these organizations wrestling product ownership, is that the message you're sending to them
Linus Wiggers 15:42
most surely, I think it's a it's a system innovation. I think it's the same as the internet itself. It's, it's here to stay, and we have to, you can say, Well, I'm not going to do that like the little grocery store at the corner of your street, he can, he can keep up with the fact that he's not going to do it and use it, but somewhere along the road he has to be online. And I think maybe that's what's here to stay as well. Is product ownership. I think we all want humans. I think people are going to that grocery store on the on the corner of your street because they want interaction. They want to have a little chit chat. But when I want to buy big things or technological things or whatever, I do that online. And if he sells whatever, bigger machines or whatever. Yeah, he's going to lose that business because there is the internet. And I think the same goes for AI you can manage without no problem. And if you have a lot of interaction with other people, then there there might be enough work for you, but people at some point will expect you to to have your work checked by AI, or to speed up, because you can use AI. And that's that's what I foresee. And I don't know where we're going, of course, just as all the other gurus in the world, they say they know where we're going, but I don't think anyone has a clue.
Dave West 17:30
Yeah, no, I was fortunate enough to go to MIT. They had an event Massachusetts Institute of Technology. You know, it's sort of like a famous place, and that the guy that runs their AI Lab came on on stage, and he said, I have no idea where we'll be in five years, because the trajectory that we've taken is not what I would have predicted two years ago. Yes. So he's like, he was very, very open and honest about the lack of of knowledge about the future. But what he did say is exactly what you said. Yes. He said that you are if you avoid this stuff, you will be left behind the application of AI in the context of both your work and the work you know the thing that you're doing. So the way you do your job and the job itself. So the sort of product and the product ownership is going to be, it's going to revolutionize work. It's going to revolutionize interactions. And if you stay on top of it and play with it, explore it, try things with it, you'll be, you can be helped drive this, and you can be in the the, not, not the 40% that will probably lose their jobs, which is what number he used to describe the change in knowledge work. I Yeah. So I think that's a really, really good message. So you, you all have done some research recently, right on around the use of AI with product ownership. Can we talk for a moment about that?
Linus Wiggers 19:09
Yeah, well, I think I can. I can elaborate a little bit on that. But like you started your this podcast, the figures are old, if they are printed. But what you also mentioned, it's not in the presentations of a year ago. It was not, I think, I don't know, in the product owner event of last year. I think we didn't even have workshops of AI or
Ruud Adriaans 19:43
something was not a, really a topic that back then. No,
Linus Wiggers 19:46
no, you didn't have them in the podcast as well.
Ruud Adriaans 19:51
Nothing. One, one guest was talking a little bit about integration AI and databases, but that was basically
Linus Wiggers 19:59
it. Yeah. Yeah, and that's what we that's what we learned from research. We do a yearly interview. We do that for five years now, amongst all product owners in the Netherlands. So we have more than 1000 people filling out the form of the, I think approximately 15,000 POS in the Netherlands, and only 2% mentioned AI as the most important subject or integration in their project, or in their in their product. So it was a little really, yeah, from, from 1000 people, only 20 mentioned it as a as a very important part of their roadmap. And we, we were amazed about that. And if you look at the figures right now, you're even more amazed that it's such a small percentage. And on the other hand, there are almost 30% I think the exact figure is 28% of all people, or of all product owners want to reduce their workload. So, yeah, how is that? How is that combining? I don't have a clue.
Linus Wiggers 21:21
It looks like and now it looks like this is the solution for the problem.
Dave West 21:27
Be more efficient, yeah, I think that shocking. By the way, 2% that that is it. When we post something on on the website that talks about, AI, we get a massive I mean, we get about 1.3 million people to the website every month. And if we post something, a significant percentage go to that because I think it a lot. Most product owners want to learn about AI, but they aren't necessarily feeling confident enough to use it yet or to apply it to the problems that they're solving. It's a bit of a black box and a bit of a risk to the to the environment that they're working. That's what I'm seeing over and over again. Do your sort of data support that?
Ruud Adriaans 22:09
Yeah, yeah. What I find interesting, what you're saying, Dave, is that you mentioned it's revolutionizing product ownership, and it's, I think we're right now, as it comes to AI, we're in a bit in evolution, evolution, yeah. But for product ownership, right now, we are in a revolution, I would say. And especially, yeah, I think some product owners can feel like they're they're behind, because it's going so rapid, so fast. For example, a lot of developers expect from you that you can AI code in a couple of months. And a lot of product owners think are still in thinking about, okay, how do I work more efficient, or how can I use it on a day to day or leverage day to day business? So yeah, I definitely recognize that it's increasing that product owners feel okay, it's time to do something. But those 2% was quite, quite low back then.
Dave West 23:07
Yeah, yeah. And I expect when we have this conversation in a year's time, it will be a much bigger percentage, all right, so I assume that this year's product owner event, there's a lot more conversations and a lot more sessions on AI. Would that be would that be true?
Linus Wiggers 23:27
Gents, yeah, totally, totally. I one other figure of the of the research, beginning of this year, 7% wants to learn about data and AI. So, so there, that's where the learning curve starts, and that's what we are going to do on the on the product owner. Event, I'm I'm giving a talk about AI for the we've got a big group of product leaders, Product Owner CPO, like the leaders of or the managers of the of the product owners, and I think that's where the change will start, or get up to speed more and more and more, because they do have to get that in mind, that it's important, and come up With a vision as well. You have somewhere you have to have a vision on the subject. There are a lot of security issues raised all the time. There's no, not always policy in the company where you where you want to use it. So so start with those as well, or first or come up with some kind of strategy in product owner.nl, we actually, we we have it on the on the calendar every month. We have team days every month, and we talk about this subject, and we learn from each other. Ruth is one of the of the guys, is he? Is on the front of all the innovation. We do all kinds of workshops, and throughout the whole company, we see all different levels. Well, that's what we are going to see as well on the second of October during the POA event in Ahoy, different workshops, different talks about all different aspects of of the subject.
Ruud Adriaans 25:24
That's what I found really cool, the different aspects, not just being an AI event, because there are 1000s, I think there will be millions, maybe soon. But really combine AI, leveraging AI with product ownership, and like Linus mentioned, we have those product owner leaders track, and I think it's more strategic level. And that combination with the product ownership and utilizing AI in that area, I think that's the sweet spot, and that's where, yeah, what we try to do as well. And I think that's super cool to bring those two two worlds together.
Linus Wiggers 26:00
Yeah, yeah. And I really do think that it's that's why we chose the How can, can we leverage the possibilities of AI in the product owner, product manager, jobs, all the jobs combined. Because if you know what you what you can do with AI, you have to sit behind LinkedIn and scroll your way all day, because everybody is telling you what you can do, but now we have to change it in what we are doing with AI, or what we will be doing with AI, but not telling each other, oh, this is cool. You can do this with AI, yeah, okay, okay, I know it now, but now let's start doing it. And that's the base where I think everything we do, from product.net we actually want to do and implement it, use it, because then that's where the real learning starts.
Dave West 27:04
Yeah, we've done a few different spikes here@scrum.org we added a translation capability to our level three assessments using AI. It actually did not work in the end. We tried a number of different things around that to help us. We and then fraud detection, which is a big problem that we have people cheating, I know Perish the thought. It's, it's actually pretty good at smelling its own, you know. It knows when it's been used, you know. So we built some tooling around that quite rapidly using AI, and that's been really interesting. And every every we're doing it quarterly, but every quarter, you know, we we bring people together and talk about technology and how we can apply it, and as a new class that came out recently around product ownership, and we now leverage AI, and that was based on talking to lots of organizations that we that we're using it over the last year, but we're learning every day as well.
Linus Wiggers 28:10
Yeah, and that's great, and that's only because you're doing it so, so that's, I very good, Dave, that's the, that's the approach I think you need. Yeah, but we see, we see all different approaches. And a lot of of the approaches are, let's talk about it and never do it. And that's yeah. That's killing
Dave West 28:31
Yeah, we do it and we get it wrong.
Linus Wiggers 28:36
I do like that more. I do like that because then you're learning I do like that way more.
Dave West 28:41
Yeah, turns out AI on paper looks like it's really good at translation and managing this sort of translation thing, not as good as it thinks it is at times. So we're, we're still working on some of that. But anyway, interesting experience, all right. So, so we've got the event on the second of October. Really exciting. Seems there's a number of sessions at the event in a lot of dam that are going to be great. We're going to get expose people to ideas, application, experiences, and then hopefully that will start building more momentum in our industry around it. So if I'm not able to go to that event, you know, if I'm listening to this podcast today and I'm a product owner, I mean, gosh, they should come, shouldn't they? There's even an English track now. So it's not just I think that's because
Linus Wiggers 29:37
our English, the English is better than our English. I wouldn't, I
Dave West 29:41
wouldn't go that far. I think the Dutch seem to be better English than me sometimes, which is very embarrassing, but the but, yeah, so there's, you know, if you can't get to that, what should a product tone out? Just, you know, what should be their next step? Maybe, you know what? What should the next thing they do with AIB? Do you know, maybe you start what? What do you think that one thing or two things should be?
Ruud Adriaans 30:04
The first thing I would say is, take a look at your roadmap or your product. What's the most What's the biggest problem you're trying to solve? Bring all your developers in one room, an organism, organize a hackathon for a day or two, and try to utilize AI tools to solve those problems I see over there. If you, if you do that, the adoption is so fast and the quality is even even bigger. I think that's that's key in adoption and being a driving force in the adoption of AI, and, yeah, secondly, I think start, if you struggle starting to utilize AI, like I mentioned, take a look at your own agenda, or just try to utilize in your personal life. So, for example, you're training for a marathon, and just create your own custom GPT or your gem in Gemini, where you upload all your results and ask for Yeah, for support, or for tips and tricks, whatever, if you utilize in your personal life. From there you can take it to work. From there you can take it to your product, and then you will definitely embrace it in a good way.
Dave West 31:20
That's good. I actually used it myself. I we had some, it turns out bat poo in our, on our, on our deck. And I was like, What is this? Is this mouse? Is this stuff? And I threw it in, it's incredible. And it said, that is. And it told me what type of bat which is incredible. And it said, This is what they do. And then we recommend. I said, Well, what do I do now? Because I don't want to kill bats, because they're awesome. And then we had this whole thing. And then I found a company it directed me at. So it's funny. I used it to my wife. Was like, wow, how did it? How did you know it's that particular variety of bat. It was, it was incredible. But that that's obviously, if you have a situation with with strange poo on your deck, I recommend utilizing AI to help you there as well. But okay, so All right, so try it hackathons. Use it solve some of those problems, which obviously your stakeholders will be like, Wow, that's awesome. That will give you experience which then do it. And then, if you can't, haven't got the environment where that happens, then at least start using it on your day to day. Linus, what do you think? What would you say?
Linus Wiggers 32:37
Yeah, I would say, don't say no anymore. Come up with a plan. Yeah, that's more on the strategic level. I If you go really into the depth of the all the llms, I do want to understand it, but I'm an IT guy. I'm somewhere I studied computer science, and this was not possible around the zeros, so I'm totally intrigued with how how they are doing this. Is it? It seems like magic, but actually, to put it very shortly, they're just guessing what word you want to hear next. That's the whole basics. But of course, there's more and more around it, but that's the basics. And why don't say no anymore? Because you, I think when on a strategic leadership level, you say no to the usage of AI, then you, yeah, you don't learn anymore. You don't learn because people are going to use it anyway, so so they are going to use it secretly, and they're going to share all confidential information with whatever system and but please use it and try it out, but share your findings, And you have to come up with some, some kind of Policy and Strategic, well, memo, or whatever you how would ever however it works at your company. But start, start using it and start somewhere.
Dave West 34:16
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. It's a bit like the internet. I remember a lot of organizations wouldn't allow external access to the internet. And the reality was that everybody was going home, and you going back to their AOL and dial up and Yeah, and actually doing it that night, that the difference with chat, with with what we're seeing today, is that you've got it on your phone. You've got the Yeah, you've got it there. So people are definitely taking proprietary information, maybe throwing it into their local phone, and then, and then that, you know that information is then free and readily so don't say no, but at least. But you have to have a plan around it. And you have to think a little
Linus Wiggers 34:59
Yeah, strategically. About and maybe, maybe turn it around instead of you. You're not allowed to use chat GPT for the next project plan. Then turn it around and ask, as a manager, ask people to give three alternatives chat GPT gave you, or whatever tool you fancy. So, so then you, you start, yeah, accepting it and, but, but then again, you can also say, well, it's not a very smart idea. If you put, put our, all our, our figures in in there, or a customer Excel sheet with 20,000 people in it. That's that's not a good idea. You have to educate people what, what can and cannot be be done with it.
Ruud Adriaans 35:48
Yeah, and Dave, I'm curious if we flip, flip it all the way around, like, if you for the listeners, scrum.org, podcast, who do you think is that should be the driving force in AI adoption,
Dave West 36:03
who should be the driving
Ruud Adriaans 36:04
force? Is that, like, particularly, something for the like, the product owner should, should do that?
Dave West 36:09
Or, Yes, oh, yeah, I think, I think so. That's an interesting question. At scrum@scrum.org. It's been everybody, everybody's really into it and trying it and trying stuff and then going, we should do this, etc. I think ultimately, the person that has to make the choices about where we're investing and what the direction that we're going is the product owner. That doesn't mean the product owner is the only person that has ideas about the use of AI in both the product and in the team that's using it. So I would, I think the product owners are very important accountability in the context of AI, because they're the intersection of business and technology, and that is where AI as as, as, as you said, Linus earlier, you know that that strategic, that the it's solving problems. It's not just playing and having fun. It is solving problems in ways that we wouldn't perhaps have solved them before, and that, I think, the huge power of of AI and and it's also the huge risk as well, because it it changes the the nature of technology and its place and how even people use it. And so that's that's a huge opportunity to product ownership and a huge risk to every business.
Linus Wiggers 37:41
Yeah, cool. I totally agree. Yeah,
Dave West 37:44
gentlemen, thank you for spending the time today on the scrum.or community podcast. It's an absolute pleasure. Can't wait to see you on the second of October. Hopefully we'll get some time to have a cup of coffee and maybe a bitter ball
Linus Wiggers 37:59
or maybe maybe a dinner again. Dave was
Dave West 38:03
fun. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for inviting me to dinner. I'm a very cheap date, though. Now that's good, but it was absolute pleasure. I think our listeners will really appreciate your insights and and for the people that that can go, remember, there's a fantastic conference on the second of October in Rotterdam. Product owner.nl for more information about that, you'll even get if you if you can't get into the other sessions and you're bored for a minute, you can come and see me talk a little bit about the Agile product operating model and what we've learned in the last year, including the application of AI in that context, which is, which will, which will be interesting. And so, thanks for listening, everybody. I mean, today we talked about AI in the area of product ownership. I think the message that that rude and Lewis said was really don't say no, get going. Start using it. Start experiment with it. You know, whether it's a hackathon or some sort of moment that you can try stuff and experiment, or whether it's just applying it to your day to day work, experimenting with it in your usage. Can you can learn things that could potentially benefit your product and help your stakeholders get more value and solve those really hard, hard problems. And thanks for listening to the scrum.org community podcast. Everybody. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe, share with friends. And, of course, come back and listen to some more. I'm lucky enough to have a variety of guests talking about everything in the area of professional Scrum Product thinking and of course, agile, thanks, everybody. Scrum on you.
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