Scrum Beyond Software: Improving Parent-Teacher Conferences at Carroll School

How can Scrum improve something as complex—and personal—as parent-teacher conferences?

In this episode of the Scrum.org Community Podcast, Dave West is joined by Andrew Nimmer, Assistant Head of the Carroll Upper School, part of The Carroll School, an independent Massachusetts school serving students with language-based learning differences. Together, they explore how a cross-functional team of educators and data specialists used Scrum to streamline and improve the parent-teacher conference experience across multiple campuses.

Andrew shares what it’s like to apply Scrum outside of technology, the shift from “one-and-done” projects to continuous product development, and the importance of clear goals, product ownership, and incremental improvement. The result? More aligned communication, better use of student data, and a conference experience that delivers greater value for families and teachers alike.

This conversation offers practical insights for anyone curious about applying Scrum in education—or any non-traditional environment.

Transcript

Moderator  0:00  
Welcome to the scrum.org community Podcast, the podcast from the home of Scrum. In this podcast, agile experts, including professional scrum trainers and other industry thought leaders, share their stories and experiences. We also explore hot topics in our space with thought provoking, challenging, energetic discussions. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Dave West  0:25  
Hello and welcome to the scrum.org community podcast. I'm your host, Dave West CEO, here@scrum.org in today's podcast, we're discussing a topic that I'm doubly interested in. It's very important to me. We're talking to a teacher assistant head of Carol Upper School and product owner at my son's school, who are using Scrum to improve the parent teacher conference experience. The reason why it's doubly important to me is I love scrum being used outside of traditional technology projects. I mean, it's just awesome to see the power of Scrum in different domains, and obviously on scrum.org we've written a lot about that, and anything that enhances the experience of my kids in school. Well, obviously I'm in for that, right? I'd like to welcome to the podcast. Andrew Nimmer, welcome to the to the podcast.

Andrew Nimmer  1:23  
Thank you for having me, Dave. I'm happy to be here and looking forward to chatting.

Dave West  1:28  
It's great. And Andrew and I've been working together quite a lot over the over the last I guess what, 10 months or so, 910, months. And it's been an incredible experience. I've learned so much about the whole process of parent teacher conferences and how my son's got my son's school works, etc. So Andrew has been a guide to that during that process. It's been awesome. All right, so our listeners are probably sitting there, you know, maybe they're on a commute or whatever, and they're, they're used to listen to podcasts about Scrum and product ownership and products and stuff. So let's before we get into the details. Andrew, can you please set the scene for our listeners? Tell them a little bit about the Carroll School.

Andrew Nimmer  2:16  
Yeah, happy to So, so the Carroll School is an independent school in Massachusetts, we have actually three campuses that are all 10 minutes from one another, but they're in Waltham, Lincoln, in Wayland, Massachusetts, in our school is for children with language based learning differences. So that means most, most often, that our students have a dyslexia diagnosis in the school is geared towards providing those students a robust, rich experience that is designed to kind of accentuate their strengths and teach them in a way that's accessible to them. For instance, the Carroll School is able to provide very small groupings for students in all of our classes, but most specifically, we are able to really kind of have blocks in the day where we target the things that students most need. Sometimes it's reading support, sometimes it's writing or mathematics. We have a whole fleet of Orton Gillingham tutors here, but we also are able to really highlight the students strengths and take it take care to enhance their dyslexic advantages, because there are a lot of advantages that come with being dyslexic, in addition to the challenges that it poses academically. So it's a wonderful school. I've been here for 13 years, and I feel really lucky to

Dave West  3:51  
work here, and as a parent of two kids at Carroll School, I feel really blessed to have the opportunity to provide this for my children. It is an amazing experience, and a lot of things are very unique about it. So it is awesome, but parent teacher conferences, right? Yeah, that was, you know, the the the mandate that you and I were given, that the head of school, Renee, came to us and said, Hey, I want to think I want to do some stuff with parent teacher conferences. I read about this scrum thing, let's do it, and brought us together to do it. So tell me a little bit about the problem that we're trying to solve with parent teacher conferences and and the sort of context for the for the scrum team, and what we've been focused on over the last 910, months.

Andrew Nimmer  4:46  
Yeah, so we do have an ethos at Carol where we we kind of examine everything we do and we kind of build everything we do from scratch. We want everything at Carol to. To support our mission and work for our students, which is amazing, and it guides everything we do. But it can be a lot. It can be a lot of times, like, for instance, our parent conferences. We have four each year. Families and caregivers receive four conferences for their child. Some of those conferences include the students, entire teaching team, sitting around a table together, or remotely. For instance, I just had a conference. My son also goes to Carol, so we are both Carol parents on this podcast. I think, I think there were nine people in the room for my most recent conference. There was an SLP, there was a science teacher, there was my students advisor and English teacher. And so we are conferences are complex, and we really try to try to make them valuable for families, and we try to make it something that a family can really get a clear picture of what's what's happening at school for their child. School tends to be this kind of unknown experience that children that for parents and caregivers, and so we really try to give them a picture of what's going on, and then talk about the students strengths and the challenges that they face and the goals that we have for them. So we over the years, we keep adapting and adjusting our we have kept adapting and adjusting our conference format to the point where it is extremely complex and it also varies from grade to grade and subject to subject advisor to advisor, where we're trying to make it as kind of uniquely tailored to each family as possible. But in that process, we have some inefficiencies. And there are, there are aspects of it that aren't have sometimes don't talk to each other, or one grade may not be aware of what another grade is doing. So that so the goal for us has been to really look at our parent conferences across all of the grades and the different the three different divisions at Carroll, and find a way to make them more valuable for families, or at least equally as valuable, while also streamlining the process for teachers, for teachers and the advisors and the people that are giving them, we want to make A process that is more aligned in uniform and supports the teachers that are creating them so that they are not, for instance, spending a third of their time formatting documents and putting them into slide decks. They're using their time to actually do that deep thinking about the children that is that is really the core of the conferences, and thinking about how they want to express that. So that's the that's the dilemma, in a nutshell, yeah.

Dave West  8:10  
And what's interesting is there's a lot of assets at Carol, like the data platform that you've got, like the, you know, work samples, etc. And because of that, coupled with what happened during covid, that conferences had sort of exploded into this very complicated process. And ultimately, you know, the less time you're spending building slide decks, the more time you spend with kids and and helping helping the my kids and yours, obviously, but all of them to, you know, to be able to read, be able to write, to do science, to do math and really to take advantage of this, this unique gift that dyslexia, in the case of my kids, provides. So I thought that was a really cool goal, right? So we formed the team around it. We brought people from different groups across so teachers, some people, a person from the data platform, we brought this cross functional team together and and got going on it. So you were new to Scrum, right? Andrew, you'd never done

Andrew Nimmer  9:20  
it before, that's correct. Very new to it, yeah, and education my whole life. So I'm just kind of new, new to a lot of things.

Dave West  9:32  
Yes, by the way, and I'm certainly new to education. Being a dyslexic person, I tried to avoid it growing up as much as possible. But all right, so you were new to Scrum. So from your perspective, you know, which I loved seeing Scrum, you know, I've been working with Scrum for over 20 years now, which sounds ridiculous, and it was so nice to see it from a new person's. A point of view, you know, from through their eyes. In fact, listeners, I just want to recommend all of you, if you've been, you know, using Scrum forever, or it feels that way, if you want to get re excited about Scrum, just work with people that have never used scrum before. It is incredible. I have to, I have to say that, but that's the side side. So from your perspective, Andrew, what were the big takeaways that made this project or this work different with Scrum?

Andrew Nimmer  10:32  
Yeah, I think the one that jumps out to me first is the idea of kind of ongoing deliverables and products. And this idea that that the goal is to just get something out there and put it out and keep keep producing products. I think the way we often work at Carol is we kind of work towards what we want to be. The the end all, be all final end goal for whatever project we're working on. And that's, that's how we do our work. We create what we decide is the final product. And then, to be quite honest, we often end up changing it or doing something that we think will be better the next year or the next month or the next two years. So we, we end up working in a way, analogous to what scrum does, but we don't necessarily have that mindset going into it, that this kind of continual product development and improvement. So that's been a piece that I've really appreciated about it, where it's kind of just named, it's like we're just going to get something out there, we're going to try it, we're going to see, we're going to get some feedback, and then we're going to keep moving. Just lean

Dave West  11:43  
into that. I remember one on one meeting when we were working together, somebody in the team, and I can't remember who said this. Said, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect. We just have to, it can't be wrong, and it can't, you know, break the system. But we don't have to get everything in this release, and we were talking about the November conferences, and that sort of incremental continuous improvement is obviously a mantra of Scrum and Agile approaches. But was, I think, a revelation that we were actually explicit in it from day one?

Andrew Nimmer  12:19  
Yeah, certainly that's been It actually took me a little while to to get to become comfortable with it. There was a point where I was kind of like, well, these November conferences are coming up in three months. Like, can we really have something? And then I think other you, or maybe other members of the team, were like, Wait, we have three months. We have so much time to get something out there. And I'm just kind of imagining all the steps, the teachers, the the kind of rollout, the division, all the kind of emails and everything. And then at a certain point we were like, We just actually have to make something like, let's, let's, let's put our flag in the sand and make something, roll it out, and then we'll, we'll then learn from that and continually improve from there. We really, actually, for the November conferences, had a pretty substantial product that we created for the middle school. Yeah.

Dave West  13:13  
I mean, it was it, as I was, obviously the recipient of it as a parent, but also, you know, from the conversation with teachers, it it was, it was, it was pretty big, but it wasn't like everything. And we are obviously working on our next set of increments at the moment. Okay, so incremental product delivery, or frequent delivery, is a key thing. What? What else? What else is different?

Andrew Nimmer  13:39  
Andrew, well, definitely the way in which people's voices across the institution are heard. So we have our kind of school administrative structure that exists, and we kind of have all of our pathways for making decisions, sharing those decisions, soliciting feedback. And in Scrum, the members of our team are not the same people that would be on a typical kind of administrative group working on something. And also, we've been very much empowered by Renee Greenfield, the head of Carol, to be the decision makers and to really, it's actually one of the things, one of my growth areas through this project has been using the word recommendation. So I keep finding myself wanting to recommend that that divisions use our products, and then I keep having the realization, and sometimes being told by you, Dave, this isn't a recommendation, this is the product. This is what we're doing. And so really owning that product has been a a change. Change in the way that we work at Carol, but I think it's really important to own that and say, This is what we're doing, here's why, here's how you here's how you provide feedback, and it kind of keeps us moving forward.

Dave West  15:16  
I was, I want to say I was shocked, but, but I'd forgotten, I guess, because I work with a lot of organizations where we've pushed a lot of responsibility down into the teams, because, because basically the situations they're working on are so complex that if they required it to go up three levels of management, it would be too late, you know. So they've got this in para team so, and I'd forgotten, but actually it reminded me of a lot of organizations, and actually organizations I still come into contact with, where consensus decision making, where everybody has to be involved in everything. It was a very different model. And that's not saying we didn't involve lots and lots of other people, teachers and Division Heads, etc, but we use, but we involve them in a very focused, feedback oriented way. And it was, it was really interesting to see how that dynamic played out. And I still think we've got a little bit of a way to go. Andrew on that, but I, I'm very impressed by Carol's ability as a broad group, to pick up this idea and actually say, Okay, let's try it. Let's see how this works. Let's see what the impact has been, and, and, and the support. I was surprised, actually, and I a lot of commercial organizations could learn something from this. I was surprised by the level of support that the leaders inside provided. They gave you support when you said recommended, and they said, no, no, no, this is the way we're doing it, Andrew, and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I meant that, yeah.

Andrew Nimmer  16:59  
I think there's something maybe unique about working with a school using Scrum in a school setting, which is that when when we come to work each day here at Carroll, we have 400 plus students that are just waiting for us to do school with them. And all the teachers, their full day is booked. They are there is every day. We have a whole program to deliver, and that extends all the way up through the administration. We are kind of supporting our teachers, working with our students every single day. So when it, when we're kind of doing projects like this, where we're kind of stepping back and looking at systems, it's, it's on top of a full slate of responsibilities in a building full of students that we need to to educate. And so I think something that I believe has been different about applying scrum to a school setting is that we have, every day, we have 400 plus students here at Carroll that are coming walking into the building, and we have a full program that we need to roll out so all of the people at Carroll, teachers and all The way up through the administration, have their full responsibilities to educate our students every single day and then so tackling more big picture projects is often kind of like an extra activity that's overlaid on those full existing responsibilities. My sense is that when lots of organizations use Scrum. They're using Scrum to do their existing work, the kind of typical work that they are doing. They're just kind of doing in the format of Scrum, where for us, we are kind of, it's in addition to the members of the scrum team. It's in addition to what they're doing. Which to me, I honestly, to be quite frank, Dave, I had some hesitancy about that, that especially seeing members to be on the team, that this was going to be a stress for them, which it has been, to be quite frank, but I have found that the members of the team are energized to be on the team. They are kind of passionate about it, and we're able to find time for them, and the work that we've done is has kind of in, in some ways, would be very challenging or impossible to do in our kind of typical workflow here at Carroll.

Dave West  19:36  
Yeah, I think I was very worried about that as well. You know, I mean Scrum, the daily scrum, for instance, that's not possible in this situation. Honestly, it isn't and but the essence of it like we have a Slack group, like we we meet regularly, we communicate regularly, we use the sprint structure to organize reviews and plan. Saying, but the way that we work and the retrospective, we definitely have improved how we work. But the way we work isn't like a typical scrum approach. However, the essence of Scrum has definitely bled through the you know, empowered teams, the ownership, the frequent delivery, the inspection and adaption, the desire to focus on a goal and connect it to a goal. All those things were very clear. So I was actually, I was like, you Andrew, I was a little, you know, skeptical Renee, when she pinged me the head of school and said, I think I've heard about this scrum thing, you know, something about Scrum, can you help us with it? I was like, oh, okay, you know, didn't want to say no, because she, you know, she's quite a little bit scary when she asks you stuff. You kind of want to say yes and the but the result has been something quite incredible. And people have found time. People have been motivated, the support, the you know, the stakeholders have accepted it quite quickly. And I'm, I'm surprised by that. In fact, I think many commercial organizations could learn a lot from this, honestly, because the desire to try things and a willingness to not look for problems, but look for solutions, was, I know, pretty, pretty exciting for me anyway.

Andrew Nimmer  21:26  
Yeah, I agree. I think we were able to kind of just make decisions and roll things out school wide, that with kind of a pace and a kind of a boldness that that wouldn't have been possible in just kind of a typical year where a few people were kind of working on our parent conferences. It also it made it easier to look at the entire school, all three divisions. So we have three campuses, three divisions, a lower a middle and an upper school. And so there's different needs for the students and for the faculty across all three of those divisions. And so we can just kind of be siloed in our individual divisions, in having a kind of cross divisional group and people that have different roles and in their divisions, has allowed us to really kind of think about the entire arc, because our families, for the most part, tend well, they jump from grade to grade, for sure, but many families are going from the Lower School to the up to the middle school and then to the Upper School, and so they're experiencing this kind of longitudinal experience that people that are in in the in it, in the divisions, are not necessarily seeing that that picture,

Dave West  22:54  
actually, that's a really interesting point. Andrew and I, it's something that I think we've got a lot more to learn about this. But one thing that we brought in, sort of by accident, was this product mindset, you know, because, yes, it was a project and it was funded. Not that anything's really funded. You brought coffee the other day. I guess that's spending money, but the funding and peso, yeah, breakfast sandwich, yeah, the it was funded as a project, yeah, because, you know, it had been decided, come on, we've it's too much complexity. We need to solve this. But then the way we've been working is thinking of it as a product that holistic view, identifying stakeholders broadly. One of the things that I was really excited about when I brought the idea of product vision to you, Andrew, I was expecting a little bit of, well, no, let's concentrate on the work we're doing. Maybe we could come back to that, but that's not you were like, Oh yeah, because that gives us a true north. It gives us a direction. This is our vision. You know the I love your mantra of we know you, we know your kid, we like your kid. We have a plan for your kid. You know you brought this and which is an upper school kind of mantra, and now it's gone across the whole school. This idea of a product, I think is really unique in it's something I didn't expect it to be so important, but it has been important. What was your what's your take on that?

Andrew Nimmer  24:31  
Andrew, well, yeah, I mean, you mentioned first the goals. The goals are not just kind of a rhetorical exercise for the group. They are actually essential to the to the process for us. So for instance, when we see something, and if our goal is to make. The kind of process more efficient for for our teachers that are working on the conference format, if we say, Oh, what if we were to add in this really cool extra process? Let's table that. Let's not ignore that idea. But that is, we need to stay true to our goals, and we really need to let them guide us, because if it's really been so helpful for us to kind of stay moving forward, because I think if we could go down these rabbit holes of other ideas, that would be great, super interesting, but if they're not serving the goal that we have, what we're going to wind up with is kind of like this extra idea. We haven't tackled our goal, and then we have this other thing that is kind of complex and we want to add it. And the goals have been really helpful for us and allowed us to deliver products. And we have these deadlines to these kind of very precise having the kind of sprints where there's a deadline. I've already sent out the the invite. We have all the people, they're coming on January 9, so I gotta have fun ready to roll by then. And it really kind of helps keep us moving

Dave West  26:16  
forward, as you can imagine. You know, we've got a cross functional team. These people had never worked together. All of them are incredibly smart, very dedicated, very mission driven people. They've got a million ideas of things that we could do that would add this, do this, create this, you know, and then we add the data platform, and, yeah, well, there's a lot we could do with that. And suddenly this could go from actually trying to create a bit more space for teachers and reduce the cut and pasting to something much to add things and goals definitely helped us there, I think, very powerfully and and I think you've done a fantastic job, Andrew, and I applaud you for really taking those, I guess it's your science teacher head. But you took the and you were like, oh, empiricism, hypothesis that you were, like, instantly drawn into the goal at model. And that has definitely helped, helped massively, yeah.

Andrew Nimmer  27:19  
I mean, it's just a useful tool for me as a product owner. It it really, it's just like a crutch that I can lean on when we're kind of going off into the wilderness of ideas. I can just say, actually, we're just going to stop this is a great idea, but here's our goal. This isn't serving our goal. We're going to come back to this and this, this is what we're talking about right now. It's, yeah, yeah.

Dave West  27:46  
So all right, so we've been using Scrum for about 910, months, right? We've released our first major product change that we did a few increments along the way. We're on for next one. So you know, as our listeners are sitting there, you know, what do you think's next? Actually, I'm interested to ask you as well. You know, we've obviously got the march conferences, the next set of conferences in our sites, we're focused on that. We've got a very clear set of, you know, set of sprint goals and incremental goals towards that. You know, are you? Do you see us continuing to use Scrum and this kind of way at Carol? I'm sort of excited to hear your perspective on that. We're interested to hear your perspective on

Andrew Nimmer  28:35  
that, yeah, so I do is the short answer, the the so we have our upcoming sprint that's around the data and conferences, and we have a lot of resources at Carroll. We have an entire data team at Carroll that is working across all different aspects of the school. And it's, it's each it's, it's a little dispersed how they're working with the school. So there's so many different kind of ways that we're using and accessing data at Carol that then in our conferences, we tend to kind of have a lot of different uses of data, for data as a central part of our March conferences, in particular, all of our conferences, but particularly the march one, are really data is essential for them. So our goal for this upcoming sprint is to really make a make a clear path that is also kind of consistent across Carol for how teachers can access data and share that with our families and caregivers. So that's our kind of current sprint. Looking into the future, we certainly will be using Scrum. I think that part of my role. Carl is the kind of liaison between Carol and Scrum is to maintain some fidelity to the to the pathways of Scrum. I actually can be a little self aware that I've already shifted the process a little, or somewhat towards the workflow of our organization. For instance, we're not kind of doing so much of this, like continuous work, where during the day, we're all chatting and working with each other, because during the day, most of our members of our team are literally in classrooms with students. They can't be kind of just throughout the day chipping away at the project. So for instance, one of the things we do is we kind of are gathering together for these kind of, like almost retreats, where we kind of sit down and we really kind of block out a bunch of time to work on projects. But there is a risk that we kind of will just it, will just kind of morph into just kind of a committee at Carol that's kind of doing work in the way that Carol does it. And I think there is some power around these kind of sprint goals, around product ownership, and around the format where we're going to deliver this product, and we're going to take into account all your feedback, but then when it's delivered, this is what we're doing, and we're going to support you with it, and then we're going to hear how it went afterwards. But really, owning the product has been key for us, and that's also been a little bit of a learning curve for us. Is how to the communication piece has been something that I've learned a lot about, for sure, communicating what we're doing and how we're doing it with the rest of Carol,

Dave West  31:46  
yeah, and it's something that I could have perhaps helped you more on. But I, I'm so used to working with organizations that have been using Scrum, and know, Scrum, and it was, this is the first time in a long time that I brought it completely into a organization that doesn't really have a project management background, doesn't have a so I didn't realize the power of product ownership, but also the impact of product ownership. I'd sort of forgotten that. I'd sort of taken it as red, which is something that I think we can improve on and continue educate Carol the people at Carroll about, yeah.

Andrew Nimmer  32:27  
So for the communication has been interesting, like so, for instance, when we've rolled out products, when it actually is fully rolled out, like in when we deliver our product, often the people that would have typically made that decision, so the people that would have typically adjusted the way we are doing parent conferences, they're just kind of receiving the new plan. They were involved in the sprint reviews, and I think for the first round, especially our first two sprint reviews, all of the feedback was like, Oh, wow. This would be so great. This is Oh, this is so wonderful. Oh, these ideas are wonderful. What if we did this? And, yeah, this is very cool. Thank you so much for your time. And I think both our group and the people providing us feedback didn't quite realize that we were then going to, like, give and this is what everyone is going to do. And when the rubber hit the road, I think there was a little bit of I think some people were caught off guard, both our teachers and our admin. But also I think myself as a lead, as a leader of the group, there was a big learning experience for me, because I just kind of I had shared that I was on this group, and I just kind of had the assumption that okay, everyone understood what I was doing and what the goal was, and that I had been given this charge, and that when I rolled it out, they understood the whole background, and then it would just kind of flow out where it really required much more kind of explanation, both on the kind of rationale, but then on also the details of the product. Because I think when we rolled out our kind of November, November conference format, there was a lot of questions well, like, what about this? Or why don't we do this? Or how, what happens if this happens, which we had spent so much time working on this, we had actually pretty much thought of all of those what ifs, and kind of had come to a conclusion of this is what we're going to do. But then we kind of had to go backwards and kind of explain why, why the product was what it was, and I didn't, I don't think I anticipated that enough in the first round.

Dave West  34:47  
No, I do remember that last sprint review where the was this, like when somebody said, Okay, so who has to agree that this, this happens? And I. Said, Well, this is our decision. And they went like, intake a breath. And I remember that, oh, I said, ultimately, it's Andrew's decision. Intake of breath might have been me, yeah, it might have been yes, that could have been that case. But I was very impressed with how Carol and the hard work that all of you put into it, the whole scrum team in communicating and making sure he was on board as we went out, but then their acceptance and and it happened and and it rolled out. I I thought that's a great advertisement for the sort of the the flexibility and the adaptability that is at Carroll School, which is maybe part of, you know, how you teach the kids as well. Because every day is a, you know, a realization of something which requires a change to the plan. And I think that maybe, you know, persists in in the whole culture of the Carroll School. So very impressed.

Andrew Nimmer  36:08  
Yeah, our culture here at Carroll is really geared towards continual improvement, so both, that's our goal for the students, but then our kind of work ethos is constant cross examination of what we do and trying to make it better and kind of incorporating best practices. So in that sense, the scrum process kind of fits in perfectly. The idea that we're changing the way we're doing conferences, in itself, is not surprising or new to Carol, just the kind of format in which it was done. It is something that's been new for sure.

Dave West  36:44  
Okay, Andrew, I could talk about this for days, as we have in the past and but our listeners have places to go, people to see, so I guess I'd like to thank you for this experience as a and listeners, I do recommend that try this, try this scrum stuff at your at your school, at your church, at your, you know, Scout group, whatever your your opportunity to introduce this to people that may not do it. I was, I was surprised by how and how much energy it gave me and how much passion it reignited and it reminded me of many of the things that maybe I forgotten because I write about it and talk about it every day, doing it again made it almost fresh and new. So I recommend that. So thank you, Andrew, for giving me this opportunity and being a pretty awesome product owner.

Andrew Nimmer  37:42  
Well, Dave, thank you for all your time in for it's not nothing to come into a school where your child goes and to kind of have the curtain peeled back and to see the process you've been, you've been wonderful for us. I appreciate your time

Dave West  37:59  
too, yes, and ignoring my eldest child who says, Oh, Dad, please don't embarrass me with those teachers, please. And I managed to ignore that, but which was always, always fun. Well, thank you. Thank you for taking the time today, Andrew and listeners, thank you for listening to today's Scrum, to all community podcast, I was lucky today to have teacher assistant head of Carol Upper School and product owner Andrew Nimmer, here talking about their experience with Scrum and his particular experience of being a product owner in In a school delivering the parent teacher conferences. Hopefully you enjoyed this. I I certainly enjoyed sort of spending that moment of self reflection on the on the process. Thank you. Thank you. And if you liked what you heard, please subscribe, share with friends, and, of course, come back and listen to some more. I'm lucky enough to have a variety of guests talking about everything in the area of professional Scrum, product thinking, and, of course, agile. Thank you, everybody and Scrum on foreign.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai