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Who is allowed to attend a Daily Meeting
Last Post 21 Nov 2012 02:31 PM by Charles Bradley. 23 Replies.
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Illya Pavlichenko
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Illya Pavlichenko

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29 Oct 2012 09:40 AM
    Scrum Guides states that: "The Scrum Master enforces the rule that only Development Team members participate in the Daily Scrum. The Daily Scrum is not a status meeting, and is for the people transforming the Product Backlog items into an Increment."

    I want to make sure that I correctly understand the above statement in the way that it really means that NOONE (even the Product Owner) is allowed to attend a Daily Standup. If that is true - then what is the underlying cause of such a change. Before, the chicken could observe the meeting but were not allowed to speak.
    Jill Graves
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    Jill Graves

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    29 Oct 2012 09:45 AM
    Hi Illya:

    I don't think anything has changed from your initial understanding. The key word in the Scrum guide is participate. Others who are not the Development Team can attend but they do not participate.
    Dominik Maximini
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    Dominik Maximini

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    29 Oct 2012 10:14 AM
    Well, the Product Owner usually doesn't understand what the developers are talking about, so he is useless anyway. Other stakeholders - especially managers - tend not to understand anything either but may feel the urge to "manage something" once they are there. So they are better off not being there.

    What I usually do is, I ask the Team at the beginning of the Daily Scrum if they allow certain spectators to participate. The spectators however are briefed in advance that they are not expected to talk.
    Regarding the PO: It largely depends on the person. If both he and the developers see a benefit in it, he of course is there (usually to answer questions right when they surface).
    Illya Pavlichenko
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    Illya Pavlichenko

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    29 Oct 2012 10:27 AM
    I had a poor experience in the past when the PO was also the part of the Development Team thus he attended the meeting. The Team felt as they were reporting to the PO about the status.
    Fredrik Vestin
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    Fredrik Vestin

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    29 Oct 2012 02:23 PM
    This is interesting. I can definitely see a value of having the PO at the daily scrum. For example when deciding what stories to skip if the team realize that they cannot deliver all stories in a sprint or to discuss changing the scope of existing stories. To me this increase transparency for the PO. The scrum guide is quite clear on this though, the meeeting is for the dev. team only.

    Illya Pavlichenko
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    Illya Pavlichenko

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    30 Oct 2012 03:51 AM

    This is interesting. I can definitely see a value of having the PO at the daily scrum. For example when deciding what stories to skip if the team realize that they cannot deliver all stories in a sprint or to discuss changing the scope of existing stories.



    Frederik, I believe these discussions are out of Daily Scrum agenda. And this is clearly defined in Scrum Guide too. The members of Development Team should answer only 3 questions, that's it. The rest is out of the Daily Scrum scope.

    Daniel Tobler
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    Daniel Tobler

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    31 Oct 2012 01:47 AM
    In my experience it is the Development Team that only takes part in the Daily Scrum. However, after the Daily Scrum is over, other brief meetings are just added ad hoc. And there it is good to have the PO and maybe other stakeholders at hand.
    --> Distinguish between the Daily Scrum (where only the Development Team shall talk and shall talk to each other) and the subsequent discussions (where not the entire Development Team attends, but a lot of bilateral talks take place).
    --> It is up to the Scrum Master to delay such discussions for after the Daily Scrum and keep this timebox within 15 minutes. I even prefer shorter Daily Scrums.
    Illya Pavlichenko
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    Illya Pavlichenko

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    31 Oct 2012 02:29 AM

    --> Distinguish between the Daily Scrum (where only the Development Team shall talk and shall talk to each other) and the subsequent discussions (where not the entire Development Team attends, but a lot of bilateral talks take place).


    I absolutely agree with you. Also it's a good practice to have a parking lot when holding a Daily Scrum where you put the issues that can be discussed after the meeting.
    Charles Bradley
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    Charles Bradley

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    02 Nov 2012 03:56 PM

    . However, after the Daily Scrum is over, other brief meetings are just added ad hoc.


    I've seen this as well, and I think it is generally a good thing, especially if it is mostly ad hoc meetings organized by the Dev Team. I've heard this concept called "The after meeting."

    Some things potentially harmful to Scrum to watch out for with this practice:
    * Authoritarian type managers/execs/PO's who might "hover" to silently observe the Daily Scrum might be tempted to exert command and control in the after meetings, or require an after meeting every day to exert such control.

    * Be careful of developers discovering impediments the previous day but *waiting* until the DS/after meeting to deal with them. The best way to remove impediments is to handle them immediately if possible. Coach your team to always be removing impediments, and not just waiting until the DS to do so.

    Other than those two anti-patterns above, the "after meeting" is a great concept, and as Daniel said, it helps keep the DS itself very short. Even on larger(9-10 devs) distributed teams that I've coached, they were able to keep their DS to 10 minutes or less.

    Regarding the DS, it is also worth noting that a) there is no requirement that it be a standup meeting, though that is often a great practice and b) there is no Scrum rule against solving impediments within the DS. So long as you can keep it to the 15 minute time-box, and the conversation is on topic for DS content (yesterday/today/impediments), you can do whatever you want in that meeting.

    -------
    Charles Bradley
    http://www.ScrumCrazy.com
    Fredrik Vestin
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    Fredrik Vestin

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    03 Nov 2012 06:06 AM
    I'll claim that the meeting is definitely not just about answering the 3 questions. With that agenda the daily standup runs the risk of turning into a status meeting. The daily scrum is a planning meeting for the next 24 hrs. Inspect what has been done since the last meeting and adapt accordingly to maximize the likelyhood of meeting the sprint goal. The PO must be involved e.g. when deciding what stories to skip in the current sprint and to me the daily scrum is the ideal time to have this discussion. If the team asks the PO to decide things like this after the DS the plan for the day may be useless. Don't you agree?
    Ryan Cromwell
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    Ryan Cromwell

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    03 Nov 2012 02:24 PM
    @Illya http://blog.appliedis.com/2012/10/0...k-the-day/

    Scrum expects us to use our intellect. I wouldn't take those questions quite so literally. Plan for the next 24 hours.
    candi rai
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    candi rai

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    06 Nov 2012 11:26 AM
    My company has different definition of the Team. Product Owner and Scrum Master are full time members of the CORE team. Every one on the CORE team attend the daily scrum. Extend Team (ie architect, project manager) is invited, but do not participate. When Extend Team has questions, they will call the people involved (usually starting with Scrum Master) and discuss them after meeting. It's great collaboration and communication within and outside the team.
    Charles Bradley
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    Charles Bradley

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    07 Nov 2012 11:58 AM
    Fredrik,

    I'll claim that the meeting is definitely not just about answering the 3 questions. With that agenda the daily standup runs the risk of turning into a status meeting. The daily scrum is a planning meeting for the next 24 hrs. Inspect what has been done since the last meeting and adapt accordingly to maximize the likelyhood of meeting the sprint goal.


    ^^ Agree 110%, and this is a concept that is not understood by many practitioners as they focus too much on the 3 questions and item status.

    The PO must be involved e.g. when deciding what stories to skip in the current sprint...

    ^^ True, and the whole Dev Team must also be involved.

    ...and to me the daily scrum is the ideal time to have this discussion...


    ^^ Is it always the ideal time to have that discussion?

    If the team asks the PO to decide things like this after the DS the plan for the day may be useless. Don't you agree?


    Let me take your point here one more step. Let's say that the team needs a PO decision on what things to add or drop from a sprint. As we know, the Dev Team and PO must be present when this decision is made. Let's say your Daily Scrum is at 10am. At 1pm, the Dev Team realizes it might need to drop an item from the sprint.

    Should that team wait until 10am the next day to have that discussion?

    Fredrik Vestin
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    Fredrik Vestin

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    08 Nov 2012 01:23 PM
    Charles,

    I am not saying that the PO must attend the daily scrum but I am questioning the reason why the scrum guide explicitly states that the DS is for dev team only. I am guessing it's to prevent the DS from becoming just a discussion/negotiation between the PO and the dev team, allowing no time for the dev team to plan their work.
    Charles Bradley
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    Charles Bradley

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    08 Nov 2012 02:23 PM
    Fredrik,

    but I am questioning the reason why the scrum guide explicitly states that the DS is for dev team only.


    Fredrik, I think you are very right to ask this question, and it's a good one. The short answer is I don't know exactly why the Scrum Guide was written that way, as I was not involved in writing that part of the Scrum Guide.(or any other part, to date, though I have given some feedback to Scrum.org on occasion).

    However, here is my guess, based on my Scrum knowledge and experiences:
    * The Dev Team(DT) has no other Scrum event where it is just them exclusively, so to ensure that they have every reasonable opportunity at self organization, the Daily Scrum was explicitly described as only the DT participates.

    ** Having anyone else participate, especially people who might be viewed as authority figures (SM, PO, Managers, etc) carries the risk of completely destroying the self organization of the DT. Giving any of these authority figures even the slightest daylight in the Scrum Guide would probably encourage them to try and participate. I think it is ok for the SM to facilitate the DS for a team that is learning, but facilitating is not the same as participating(as in, answering the 3 questions, etc).

    *** Along this theme, having any other authoritative figure present also runs the risk of the DS turning into a status or "report up" meeting, which is definitely NOT what we want.

    ** I'll go one step further. I'd prefer that no one else(besides the DT, and the SM when needed) be *present* at the DS, because it discourages transparency. People who are being observed by an authority figure will not be as transparent as those who are free from such observation.

    * The purpose of the DS is to inspect and adapt the plan. Many studies have shown that when a team is empowered to self organize to provide it's own plan, it is much more likely to execute that plan well and on time. Introducing others means reducing the empowerment, IMO.

    ** The PO has no role in coming up with the plan -- only the ordering, definition(acceptance tests), and clarification of PBI's. The PO has all kinds of influence over the "WHAT", but only the Dev Team owns "THE HOW". Therefore, one might say that the DS is for the "HOW', and not for the "WHAT".

    * Since we often want the PO to be someone empowered, from the business side of the house, it may be impractical to require them to come to the Daily Scrum -- because of their business side duties. OTOH, IMO, there is no such thing as too much communication between the PO and team. IME, very few Scrum teams can get along well without a lot of interaction with the PO. Maybe the DS is just not the appropriate time for it. Let's remember, the DS is only 15 minutes, so there *are* another 7 hours and 45 minutes of the day(typical US work day) when the PO can collaborate with the DT. I mean, you could have a PO Q&A just before your DS(so long as it does not impact the DS in any way -- and that includes the DS start time) every day, if you're really worried about PO decision affecting the plan. However, the reality is your team should be interacting with the PO *whenever* the PO is needed. While the PO need not be present all day every day, they should be pretty highly available all day every day, IMO. In summary, there is a very wide range of how much actual time a PO spends with a team or managing the backlog. As such, taking them out of having to participate in the DS allows for POs who also spend a fair amount of their time with stakeholders or in non Scrum team/business activities.

    Many of the obstacles you mentioned can be solved in other ways besides at the DS. The Scrum Framework encourages you do to do whatever you can to solve these issues on your own
    Charles Bradley
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    Charles Bradley

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    08 Nov 2012 02:26 PM
    Whoops. I hit the "submit" button too soon.

    The Scrum Framework encourages you do to do whatever you can to solve these issues on your own


    Should read:
    The Scrum Framework encourages you do to do whatever you can to solve these issues on your own, without changing the framework itself. As the Scrum Guide says, "Scrum’s roles, artifacts, events, and rules are immutable and although implementing only parts of Scrum is possible, the result is not Scrum."
    Gunther Verheyen
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    Gunther Verheyen

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    11 Nov 2012 12:43 PM
    Hmm, same topic, different thread. Here's my view, as stated in the other thread:
    I always tell that the meeting is mandatory for the Development Team, as you say. It is after all their meeting, their inspection of their work.
    I tell that Scrum Master and Product Owner are allowed to join the meeting. This seems to have a positive effect on the team; it shows they are connected and committed as Scrum Team members. But if they join, behave as every other Scrum Team member. So, don't start leading the meeting. I ask them to answer the 3 questions from their perspective. It keeps the others informed, and it helps to keep the Product Owner to be accurately informed which is quite helpful for his/her stakeholder management.
    And don't forget that the 3 questions are indeed only a means to get the right information in the open. Just formally answering the 3 questions for the sake of it isn't helping either.
    Fredrik Vestin
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    Fredrik Vestin

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    12 Nov 2012 03:41 AM
    Charles,

    Thanks for your detailed reply. I am inclined to agree on most parts.
    Charles Bradley
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    Charles Bradley

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    12 Nov 2012 03:28 PM
    Fredrik,

    You're welcome, and I'm glad you found value. It's an excellent question, which leads me to believe you are on a good path towards good Scrum. Keep asking the tough questions!
    sunandajit
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    sunandajit

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    20 Nov 2012 01:06 AM
    I am new to Scrum and was reading the Scrum Guideline. In page #10 it states 'Every day, the Development Team should be able to explain to the Product Owner and Scrum Master how it intends to work together as a self-organizing team to accomplish the goal and create the anticipated Increment in the remainder of the Sprint.'
    My question here is, how does/should this communication take place, during the Daily Scrum or via email or any other Status Reporting method as we see project management methodologies?
    Ryan Cromwell
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    Ryan Cromwell

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    20 Nov 2012 06:33 AM
    "Should be able to"
    This is illustrating the purpose of the Daily Scrum, not a reporting
    structure or explicit activity that must occur.

    On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 2:06 AM, <ScrumForum@scrum.org> wrote:

    >
    Charles Bradley
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    Charles Bradley

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    20 Nov 2012 10:54 PM
    I agree with Ryan -- this is simply a description of the "outcome" or "acceptance criteria" for a healthy Daily Scrum.

    I also agree with that Ryan that this is not an explicit activity, though I think occasionally it is ok for the PO and/or SM to request that the Dev Team give a 1-2 minute summary of their plan for achieving the Sprint Goal and Increment, especially when they have trouble seeing what that plan might be. In short, I'd probably only ask for the summary once a sprint every now and then, and I would NOT do it during the DS. I'd probably do it just after the DS is completely over.
    sunandajit
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    sunandajit

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    20 Nov 2012 11:34 PM
    Thanks Ryan and Charles, for your input. This clarifies my doubt.
    Charles Bradley
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    Charles Bradley

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    21 Nov 2012 02:31 PM
    Sunandajit,

    You're welcome. Happy to help!
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